Brabham BT36 - Page 22

K.Wisskirchen · 12 Mar 2009, 14:37 (Ref:2414311)

Hi James,

no, I don't believe that this rollbars came not from factory. You can see on old photos the BT35 of Joseph Ludescher and Jochen Maas with both kinds of rollbars side by side, here: http://www.formel3guide.com/index.ph...494&Itemid=310

Lock for No. 21 and 23. Doubleclick on the pictures and you can see it better.

But I can't find anywhere which kind of BT35 Ludescher and Maas raced.

Klaus

K.Wisskirchen · 12 Mar 2009, 15:25 (Ref:2414331)

Quote:

Originally Posted by K.Wisskirchen

Hi James,

no, I don't believe that this rollbars came not from factory. You can see on old photos the BT35 of Joseph Ludescher and Jochen Maas with both kinds of rollbars side by side, here: http://www.formel3guide.com/index.ph...494&Itemid=310

Lock for No. 21 and 23. Doubleclick on the pictures and you can see it better.

But I can't find anywhere which kind of BT35 Ludescher and Maas raced.

Klaus

PS. If BT35B and BT36 are realy similar (including the rollbar), BT35-6 (Cook) is for example NOT a BT35B. As a "F2/Atlantic" it can only be BT35A (3 made?).

James Murray · 12 Mar 2009, 15:40 (Ref:2414340)

Klaus

All the BT35/36 series frames are the same. Brabham built BT35'S in F3 trim and Atlantic trim. The frames on these cars were the same. What differentiated them were the engines and gearboxes. The F3 BT35 had a restricted twincam and Hewland Mk8, the Formula Atlantic had a BDA or fully tuned twincam and FT200 gearbox and wider wheels. When they were built the cars never had BT35A,B or C on the chassis plate just BT35 and then the number eg. BT35-6.

Here in lies the problem today as many BT35's that were originally F3 cars have had FT200's and BDA's installed and unless you know the history of the car there is no way of telling whether it was an original Atlantic spec car or an F3 spec car.

Adding to this the BT36 because it used the same frame as the BT35 is very easy to clone, simply by adding an FVA, FT200 and BT30 side pods. Which is probably what has happened with BT36-20.

phdm · 12 Mar 2009, 15:47 (Ref:2414345)

All BT35 chassis plates indicate BT35 followed by the car number.
There is no indication of A, B or C.

The roll hoop of BT35-6 has at least been changed twice during the life of the car.
I have photos of the car when it was in Holland in the nineties. It had at the time a non original narrow roll hoop "a la BT30" which was later changed when the car returned to the UK.
It is therefore very difficult, not to say very dangerous, to draw conclusions when you don't know the history of the cars which may explain certain differences and specificities.

kent_racer · 12 Mar 2009, 17:29 (Ref:2414393)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kent_racer

No it's a fake : BT36-20...

I think I must explain.
I contact the owner some month ago.
He claims it's one of the very rare BT36 ... Can't ear it could be a BT35 in BT36 version !
I'm afraid such a behaviour doesn't help very much too.
But the previous owner could tell us more if he want.
So Allen you are right it's not a fake but look alike BT 36.

driftwood · 12 Mar 2009, 17:48 (Ref:2414401)

define fake?
if a car is described as BT36 when its not what is it then?
ok we may assume its a bt35 made up to bt36 spec
if so be a man and call it BT35/36 not bt36= fake

kent_racer · 12 Mar 2009, 18:06 (Ref:2414414)

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that Geoffroy buyed the car thinking it was a BT36.
But is it really one ? I'm afraid nobody knows it without doubt ! That's why I shouldn't have wrote fake.

K.Wisskirchen · 12 Mar 2009, 18:33 (Ref:2414438)

No, I don't want to make any conclusions. Because of that, I always use the words "if" and "can". Surly I'm a greenhorn without knowledge about Brabham. But in my job I had learned to measure with my eyes, and if I see this "different" cars, I see on the first look that this is not the same. Maybe this difference is not importend for anybody.

I wondered that all this "changed" rollbars looks exactly the same.
All bars with this light bow left and right, and with the wide bow on top.

I have not seen this kind of bar at any other Brabham. Only at BT35.

I wonder, if the rollbar must be changed, they choosed this much more "difficulty to build" rollbar, if they can fit the "original" straight rollbar like BT36. And they should used all the same kind for changing?

Sure, it can be possible that there were different security-regulations for different countrys and race series. For example a wider bow around the helmet of the driver, not as narrow like BT36. And it "can" be normal that Brabham built it different for there customers.

So, no final conclusions but "loud" thinking.

Klaus

Bryan Miller · 12 Mar 2009, 21:52 (Ref:2414551)

There is a major difference with the BT35 / BT 36 chassis , if anyone can inspect the chassis it should be very easy to ascertain whether the car is BT 35 based or BT 36 based .
1] In the cockpit section alongside the fuel tanks does a diagonal tube run from top/front to bottom rear .
2] Again in the cockpit section instead of the above mentioned diagonal is there
instead a vertical square section tube with a flat plate welded to it , and triangular gussets in the four corners of the vertical walls of the cockpit section.
3] I own BT35-8 , still with it's factory chassis plate which says BT35-8 full stop.
4] My car still has it's factory roll-over hoop and it doesn't look like the Matthews car.
5] U.S.A. SCCA are very concerned about roll-over hoop wall thickness and require a 1/16'' hole drilled to check wall thickness and then an inspection note is issued and the logbook identified that the car complies , perhaps the old bar was damaged and in the course of the restoration a new bar was made.
6]The only way to solve this one is for all you chaps to pay to bring me to Europe and I will check it out, the next Qantas flight leaves in 2 hrs.

Bryan.

driftwood · 12 Mar 2009, 23:36 (Ref:2414611)

earls court has enough sheep herders besides Pi is this weekend must be some new cars visting yr shores to make notes on!

phdm · 13 Mar 2009, 10:22 (Ref:2414805)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

I have a note that BT35-20 [used in F3 by Ingvar Pettersson and Stig Blomquist in 1971/72, then Lars Svensson for three years] was in the USA in 2005
Afraid didn't note source

Chris

One of these Chris ?

http://www.ssij.nu/anderstorpnostalgi7.htm

Have you got further information on its current whereabouts including the details of the owner in the US ?

This would eliminate BT35-20 as the donor car used for "BT36-20".

Thank you.

phdm

K.Wisskirchen · 13 Mar 2009, 12:35 (Ref:2414872)

Whow, Bryan! These are great informations! Easy and clear to see. I think, you can stay at home and have a nice time.
If I'm right, I can see the tube along the fuel-tank from front up to bottom down, at Geoffroy's car on the 2nd photo. So it can be only a BT36 chassis?

Klaus

K.Wisskirchen · 13 Mar 2009, 22:37 (Ref:2415223)

Perhaps I have found the car with the Arch-No. "AM71-20".
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C81410/
A Pallisier fom 1971 has this Arch-No. This BT36-20 is a joke.

Klaus

Simon Hadfield · 13 Mar 2009, 22:54 (Ref:2415235)

Klaus, Arch made chassis for many constructors so there may well be an AM71-20 for March, Brabham, Lotus, Palliser etc.This Brabham may be a joke but not for this reason.

K.Wisskirchen · 13 Mar 2009, 23:06 (Ref:2415242)

Simon, you mean they gave for every racecar-maker a seperat No.-series, but without special ID for maker and/or model? Very simple,- but why not.
Thanks.

Klaus

Bryan Miller · 14 Mar 2009, 06:12 (Ref:2415335)

Klaus,

Please don't forget that it is not too hard to cut out the BT35 bits and pieces and replace with BT36 , we are only talking about a days work by someone such as Simon Hadfield or Peter Denty .
The only way you would really find out is to strip the chassis to bare bones , beadblast and look for witness marks of the old nickel bronze welds if it is a converted BT35 to BT36.

Bryan.

driftwood · 14 Mar 2009, 11:44 (Ref:2415436)

also why frig around cutting out chassis parts when u could even make new complete chassis get a set of stamps and a hammer and hey presto a "brabham BT36" chassis with AM numbers
but Bryan is right the best solution would be clean off the old chassis and see what welds or cut refitted tubes display its "life story"

or interrogate the current owner and previous owner to get the story
i have the bright lamp and chair

K.Wisskirchen · 14 Mar 2009, 13:12 (Ref:2415508)

Yes, sure. It's no problem to copy the whole chassis in good quality as often as you want. If money doesn't matter.
But what did people do during the last 30 years when they needed a new spaceframe, after Brabham's doors where closed and nobody had it on stock? What must I do if I need a new frame today? I have to copy.
If I would race my fathers car, I would measure the whole chassis, build a helping frame (in german "Helling") and some masks, and I'm out of trouble. And for perfekt welding I call a good friend and buy some bottles of fine beer.

Isn't this the normal practise since 30 years? Or is it possible to get a brandnew frame from Arch with AM-No. for normal money?

Klaus

driftwood · 14 Mar 2009, 13:32 (Ref:2415513)

arch motors still trading so easy make a phone call to order new frame they are not expensive the cost of tube rods labour is the same to make brabham dulon van deimen palliser frame - a frame is a frame to the welder another day another dollar not yippee im so lucky today to weld up a brabham frame instead of a trailer chassis
the only person excited about it being brabham is the owner of the car

K.Wisskirchen · 14 Mar 2009, 18:10 (Ref:2415621)

Oh, that's fine! So I can drink the beer by myself. And now it seems to be easy to understand why Arch gives no information of chassis-Numbers.

Am I the first who has the idea, using a "new" spaceframe for racing, and store the original (if it is) for selling the car later?

Klaus

driftwood · 14 Mar 2009, 20:18 (Ref:2415672)

Am I the first who has the idea, using a "new" spaceframe for racing, and store the original (if it is) for selling the car later?mate it sound slike you have started drinking the beer already- its been going on for a long time now

K.Wisskirchen · 14 Mar 2009, 20:47 (Ref:2415691)

only two

driftwood · 15 Mar 2009, 09:39 (Ref:2415878)

best leave it at 2 beers if you have any more you will have crazy ideas of fitting 4WD and V8 repco engines to brabham cars

Steve Wilkinson · 15 Mar 2009, 10:38 (Ref:2415896)

Quote:

Originally Posted by driftwood

best leave it at 2 beers if you have any more you will have crazy ideas of fitting 4WD and V8 repco engines to brabham cars

Nothing crazy about fitting Repco V8s into Brabhams - happened on several occasions back in the day.

Tony Griffiths in his BT29X complete with Repco V8 - Doune 1971

driftwood · 15 Mar 2009, 13:54 (Ref:2415989)

steve i was being facitious! BUT it is worth it for 1 of your superb fotos dear
will swap for a puppy!

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