USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Mal]

I noted that he stopped short of calling it a 'Sport' when asked the question, but referred to it as 'Entertainment with Credibility'

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mal

I noted that he stopped short of calling it a 'Sport' when asked the question, but referred to it as 'Entertainment with Credibility'

It was like "opening night at a restaurant", that was a good line too!

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by TF110

Joeb, I know they may have stood a chance to podium if they ran faultlessly, but the stint length and top speed were worse than even bmw. Magically the Z4's were turning consistent 1:45's in the last hours closing the gap. Maybe tires? Maybe wing adjustments?

The Z4's were the fastest GTLM cars in trap speed during the race:

http://boom.net/~mike/lapfu.php?char...56-GTLM&trap=1

Would have been a nice time to try out that anti-sandbagging rule.. but hey, since when would the series say they're doing something and then do something completely different? :-)

-mike

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

The Z4's were the fastest GTLM cars in trap speed during the race:

http://boom.net/~mike/lapfu.php?char...56-GTLM&trap=1

Would have been a nice time to try out that anti-sandbagging rule.. but hey, since when would the series say they're doing something and then do something completely different? :-)

-mike

I'm sure they just "found" something with the setup

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'm sure they just "found" something with the setup

IMSA took 60mm off their rear wing height on Thur. before the race. That would help a lot, especially after they had some running time with it.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Accident

"...and the stands had people in them." - Ricky Taylor

Daytona was the only Grand AM race that ever had decent attendance, the test will be WG, Laguna etc. I think a lot of people went to Daytona this year expecting a brave new world.

[FstrthnU]

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/co...tien-bourdais/
Daytona Prototypes to regain the diffuser for Sebring, possibly other races

[jasonjessica09]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/co...tien-bourdais/
Daytona Prototypes to regain the diffuser for Sebring, possibly other races

I think the diffuser is not a great idea. That is the single biggest cost increase for the DP teams and I don't think they really need it.

[Matt]

We'll find out after the test.

[Holt]

Its obvious now the cars cant be equal on all courses under one set of rules. They should have taken 300 or so RPM off the DPs at Daytona.

But the Oak Racing car was passing DPs around the outside in the infield, so they will need the diffuser to keep up with the P2s at Sebring.

[Mal]

And is there still a risk of a blow over is one spins at high speed?

[JoestForEver]

That depends on the downforce of the front, but looks like IMSA is ready to put DP in a much more favored position than P2.

[TF110]

Im no expert, but Daytona may have been a unique case with the blowovers with the diffuser. At least we can hope thats the case!

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Matt

We'll find out after the test.

Indeed, test is 2-weeks from now and I am pretty interested to see how the various classes shake out at Sebring. I expect some tweeking of the prototype bop after the test, and possible GTD. I don't expect anybody to have a 1 second gap over anybody like we had at Daytona which is something that should make the teams happy.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

That depends on the downforce of the front, but looks like IMSA is ready to put DP in a much more favored position than P2.

If DP are BoPed to be in the lead at Sebring I'm out...

[Jack Spratt]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

That depends on the downforce of the front, but looks like IMSA is ready to put DP in a much more favored position than P2.

Not quite. Having already spun means that now you have no downforce to speak of, front or rear.

The blow overs were a result of the air underneath and inside the cars, the diffuser created lift when turned into the direction of travel. Vented fenders helps to relieve the pressure under the bodywork as would roof flaps ala NASCAR.

A blow over can occur anywhere given the right conditions, Daytona isn't an anomaly in that respect, it just happened to produce the right conditions at the time.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

If DP are BoPed to be in the lead at Sebring I'm out...

What happens if they're even and the DP takes the win due to better strategy and less mistakes? Still out?

[Canada ALMS fan]

The P2s have already been dialled way back with limited aero and rock hard spec tires and DP being given a major power boost so having DP "equal" in terms of performance is already more than a little disingenuous. They are boring technically and to watch on track. Last year at Sebring we had LMP1 space ships win overall, they are breathtaking to watch the corners and even more stunning to look at in the paddock with all the panels off. To see a glorified 1970's Trans AM car, as they were brilliantly described yesterday, win overall almost makes my stomach turn.
Let's just give DP more and more power and more and more downforce until they out-accelerate and corner the same as P2 cars while the P2 cars race at a spec LESS than their specified rule set. Brilliant.

[Maelochs]

The ideal should be, as it almost was at Daytona, that a well-driven, well-engineered example of either class should turn equivalent lap times around any track.

If DPs needs extra aero and power to keep up, they should get it, and equally P2s should get what they need---to Compete.

The quickest DP was .6 quicker than the quickest P2 at Daytona---it's hard to know if engineering, experience, and familiar rubber was responsible for that gasp, or if anther small tweak was needed.

Anyone who saw the Oak Morgan-Nissan carving up the infield should feel secure that P2s will perform at Sebring. If DPs are made Equal (not better, not worse) that we have no reason to complain, no matter which car wins.

I want the best of both varieties to be turning the same lap times, that's all. I don't want my prejudice about a specific chassis type to dictate the race result. That is not fair no matter which type I might favor.

Run a real race, is what I say. No LDWB, no TV cautions, just put equivalent cars in class on track and let them settle it by racing.

[chernaudi]

I don't wanna sound excessively angry or off put by some of the comments here, but I think that we all know how most fans think of the DP cars and have questioned and stated NASCAR's involvement in IMSA now.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of them for the reasons that Canada ALMS Fan and others have posted, and I agree with Mulsanne Mike every time he says that he's not exactly inspired by mid-engined, long wheelbase, modernized Trans Am and IMSA GTO cars. The most modern thing on a DP are the engines, gearboxes, pushrod operated inboard suspension, and, since the end of last season, carbon brakes.

I do hold DP's to be race cars, however, no matter how out of place they may be or seem today. I have to admit that I'm a huge fan of 1970's LM cars, such as the Rondeau LM cars (one of which won LM overall in 1980) and the WM Peugeots, even if their turbocharged Peugeot PRV V6s were essentially time bombs that often operated on the edge of failure and often went over that edge.

All of that being said, and though of a similar vintage (the Rondeau cars, from the Inaltera GTP though to the M382) were tube-frame/monocoque hybrid chassis (tube frame encased in load bearing aluminum sheet panels, sort of like some Ferrari F1 and LM cars from the 60's and early '70s, while the WMs were monocoque cars with a load bearing backbone structure), I do find the DP's less glamorous than those cars, but DP's could have a place in modern racing if they were cheap, which they aren't.

I know that I'll probably be crucified by some, but some of the DP owners should probably be thrown a bone, because they're the ones who made the most investment with upgrades on their cars. In 2003, a rolling DP chassis, minus engine, cost $365K. Then the Gen 2 cars upped the cost to about $420K or so, and the Gen 3 cars now cost $480-500K. That's already more than a fully-complete cost capped LMP2 does, but with the upgrades, we're now talking about a $100-150K increase. So that's about $600-650K.

I don't like the DP's any more than most of you here, and I don't like the fact that the things have never passed any major crash tests, let alone the ACO/FIA tests that the LMP2s have passed, but the DP's are here to stay for the immediate future, not until something cheaper comes on the scene that's faster on track and more economical to own and run.

And with the 2017 rules, IMSA has said that the tube frame DPs will be obsolete under those rules, exceptions to be made for those that adopt a Super GT/DTM carbon chassis. I'm not the biggest fan of DTM or even Super GT (though I found the latter interesting, especially when they still ran production based engines and modified unitbody chassis).

I know that the late race yellow also PO'd some (OK, a lot!) people, and that along with what happened with the Gainsco Riley Corvette DP and how much it was totally destroyed is IMO inexcusable, but there's not much we can do now. We can only hope that those in charge learn from this. If they don't start to show signs that they're learning from their mistakes and such, then it's time to lose faith.

I can understand people being ticked, but it's only race one. Even though I found some stuff that happened as being inexcusable, if the management does indeed plan on keeping the DP's too far out front and they don't learn from the errors of Daytona, if it keeps going until mid-season, then it's time to really question what's going on.

I don't think that going off the deep end now won't fix anything. Even if they will only listen to bombast and sensationalism, you can't take it too far. If they don't make an effort to improve and get better, then it's time to lose it...

[somebodysb2]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

what happened with the Gainsco Riley Corvette DP and how much it was totally destroyed is IMO inexcusable

As of right now, 2014 spec DP's are nothing more than tube-framed coffins.


The ACO does it differently.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

The P2s have already been dialled way back with limited aero and rock hard spec tires and DP being given a major power boost so having DP "equal" in terms of performance is already more than a little disingenuous. They are boring technically and to watch on track. Last year at Sebring we had LMP1 space ships win overall, they are breathtaking to watch the corners and even more stunning to look at in the paddock with all the panels off. To see a glorified 1970's Trans AM car, as they were brilliantly described yesterday, win overall almost makes my stomach turn.
Let's just give DP more and more power and more and more downforce until they out-accelerate and corner the same as P2 cars while the P2 cars race at a spec LESS than their specified rule set. Brilliant.

P2's are faster than ACO spec in TUSC.

[chernaudi]

Perhaps not really--they may have larger air restrictors, but I'd bet that the spec Conti/Hoosier rubber is inferior in terms of performance to the Michelin or Dunlop tires that they run in Europe.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Perhaps not really--they may have larger air restrictors, but I'd bet that the spec Conti/Hoosier rubber is inferior in terms of performance to the Michelin or Dunlop tires that they run in Europe.

This and also until this article they were being required to run Le Mans levels of downforce to reduce cornering speed.
http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/bo...d-for-sebring/

Anyway, my point was not to hate on DP, it was to say that I hope inferior machinery isn't given an advantage due to prior allegiances. If this truly is a merger I want a fair fight until the new rules for 2017. DP were designed for Daytona but if they start winning at Road Atlanta, Sebring, and Laguna Seca because the P2 are artificially stifled that is not acceptable. Once we have cars built to a single ruleset then we will know differences are in engineering and driving, providing they don't try to balance all machinery as equal.
And as Maelochs says, please no more manufactured racing.

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

The P2s have already been dialled way back with limited aero and rock hard spec tires and DP being given a major power boost so having DP "equal" in terms of performance is already more than a little disingenuous. They are boring technically and to watch on track. Last year at Sebring we had LMP1 space ships win overall, they are breathtaking to watch the corners and even more stunning to look at in the paddock with all the panels off. To see a glorified 1970's Trans AM car, as they were brilliantly described yesterday, win overall almost makes my stomach turn.
Let's just give DP more and more power and more and more downforce until they out-accelerate and corner the same as P2 cars while the P2 cars race at a spec LESS than their specified rule set. Brilliant.

I keep saying any winner of the 12 Hours post 2012 needs an asterisk next to their name to note the dumbed down spec nascar joke years.