USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/10296...totype-chassis
This news is gutting.
A common spec chassis, with brand specific "decorations" and different engines.

The 2017 P2 car will be dreadful! What are they thinking?

That is just terrible. I can only wonder how these clowns think this is a good idea??

..and this is Elkins and co. speaking and lobbying the ACO... I hope the ACO don't bite on this idiotic idea, but then they just view it as a Pro/Am support class category, so it doesn't matter too much to them, as long as they get enough entrants who's cheque cashes while they focus on the category that brings in the gate receipts.

[Maelochs]

TUSC has every chance to completely kill North American sports car racing in 2017 by going to a spec chassis with different engines and bodies.

I can already watch NASCAR road races and by and large, I don't.

This is sort of a worse version of what failed so badly with Rolex--standardized chassis with slightly different bodywork and a few different standardized engines.

ELMS just showed how well a P2 top class can work in multi-class racing. But TUSC nor its component series ever were very good at learning from the successes of others or their own failures.

FIA is probably thinking that a cheaped-out P2 won't matter to WEC, and if TUSC fails, so much the better for WEC. More downloads.

[Hendrix]

I can only see TUSC failing as a bad thing for the international scene as there would be nothing in the U.S. to get people not already into Le Mans racing interested in the series. I also don't think it would add to the viewership of the WEC as chances are people that are interested in it are already watching it.

I really hope it survives, but it won't happen so long as the people running it refuse to address the problems that need fixing.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by nkoske

I don't think they left TUSC because of BoP. I think they left TUSC because they're not enamored with the series and doesn't meet Muscle Milk's goals any longer.

Greg did not hide the fact that he loved P1 (and the P2s that drove like P1s).


Comments regarding Scotty A. aside, TUSC does not embrace change nor leading edge technology. TUSC does not have the same commitment to innovation, product performance and quality.

I'd bet that TUSC no longer fulfills Muscle Milk's priorities, that's why they're not in TUSC. I'll go even further and say that current P2s don't meet the requirements.

It certainly looks like P1 in the WEC is the only place you can now go to race in that type of category. Unless GTLM would allow some sort of innovation.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Danathar

Sounds like LMP2 IndyCar

Carbon fiber DPs, DTM, Aussie V8, INDY Car, Carbon NASCAR. Homogenization. GTLM and GT3 will rule!

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

It would me. Why do we have to take steps backwards in automotive technology and away from prototypes when we have so many technological skills and resources?

Let me clarify a little. It would not upset me, but it also would not make me happy either.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Christian Mogami

I heard from a little birdie,who isn't too happy about the BOP but can't do nothing about it!

That IMSA has a gun stuck to their heads about doing the right thing with BOP after all the money the DP teams spent to upgrade their rides.The DP camp and their backers(GM and Ford) told them they would leave the series if IMSA takes away the DP advantage(the 150hp).

So behind doors at the moment,IMSA is trying(begging) for a reduction of 20-30hp from the DP for LS!

That's quite a threat. Without GM (and Corvette in GTLM) you can kiss the series goodby. Team Corvette would be of to the WEC probably.

The BIG mistake was making the DP teams pony up all that cash for upgrades. It seems they really did not NEED all those upgrades. They went overboard on the upgrades. They should of spent enough to make the DP cars 2-3 seconds faster than GTLM and then slowed the P2 cars down just a little.

That would of cost FAR less and I'd bet we would have more DP and P2 cars on the grid.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

If they can't do that, then speed up the P2. How hard is this, I'm taking all of minutes to think about it and write it. Yeesh.

You can't speed up P2's. It would require major upgrades and they would no longer be ACO spec.

[Maelochs]

TUSC does seem to have at least some interest in keeping P2s ACO-compliant, probably hoping to attract some Euro teams.

In fact TUSC has gone a long way towards keeping P2s as they are--I think because of fan base preference.

At this point, if after having made DP teams spend several hundred thousand dollars for upgrades, TUSC asked P2 teams to spend an equal amount to match the DP upgrades, likely every P2 team would leave immediately.

Also, P2 engine suppliers would need to invest to make more power out of the motors, and why would any manufacturer spend a penny to make cars TUSC-compliant when it isn't clear if P2 will be much of a part of TUSC?

[gsmith2424]

Interesting link about the ACO concerns on DP/P2 BoP.

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/ac...usc-dp-p2-bop/

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Danathar

That's quite a threat. Without GM (and Corvette in GTLM) you can kiss the series goodby. Team Corvette would be of to the WEC probably.

Well, at least there's Ford cleaning up the rest of the field in TUSC. C'mon, Ford has Honda and Nissan battling out so it's not a loss there.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I am pretty sure you can't. I'm on the phone right now, thoug, so I can't look it up. Will do so tomorrow.

To follow up on that:

The specifications listed in the Homologation Form and all
the aerodynamic elements of the car can be changed only
by the car Manufacturer and with the Endurance Committee
agreement.
They will be then homologated by the Homologation Group.

Except for safety or reliability reasons, only one evolution
per year is permitted before the first event of the season in
which the homologated model is entered.

This annual evolution is allowed only for safety, reliability,
servicing or cost reduction reasons.
The car thus modified must not exceed the maximum price
fixed in Article 1.1.1.b. above.
These evolutions will be also allowed on the models of the
previous years if they are fully and integrally applied.

* For cars homologated in 2013 and onwards:
For the "24 Heures du Mans" only, a low drag kit may be
homologated. It must not exceed 10 000 €.

The total price of all these evolutions, including the Le
Mans kit, must not exceed 35 000€.

* For cars homologated in 2012 and before:
No new low drag kit for the "24 Heures du Mans" may be
homologated.
The total price of all other evolutions must not exceed
10 000€.
No bodywork variation is permitted. The only bodywork
elements that may be added or removed are the 2 flaps in
front of the car described in Article 3.6.2. below. They must
be included in the price of the car.

Source

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by gsmith2424

Interesting link about the ACO concerns on DP/P2 BoP.

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/ac...usc-dp-p2-bop/

Elkins says it was "50 HP" that were given to the DP's while Maelochs says, "150 HP".

Is there any way for us to know for sure?

[Fogelhund]

Interesting admission by elkins.

“We’re never going to match them,” IMSA’s tech chief Scot Elkins told Sportscar365. “I’ve lost count how many times I’ve said it: We’ve got apples and oranges here.

They needed a clean slate from the beginning, even if it delayed the actual merger. Pick a single direction, go with it. For the cost in upgrades in DP, they could have all bought new P2 coupes, even if it meant subsidizing these entrants a bit longer for the cost difference. As Elkins says, this is Apples and Oranges, was never really going to work, and now they are losing entries, fans and support in general. As it stands, the DP entries are down approx 50% from last year already, and P2 support is dieing.

[Maelochs]

I think I am wrong here. I think I am conflating the hp advantage DPs already had with the added horsepower, which I believe was more like 100, for a total of 150.

I am pretty sure a survey of Sportscar365 or Racer articles would reveal harder numbers

[MagVanisher]

How about cutting the horsepower to 10 to 15, then reduce the fuel allocation if allowed.

[ttdriver2009]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

To follow up on that:



Source

Seems that the P2 cars are stuck with what they start the season with. I thought that those cars could develop and do whatever they want for the season. Just an initial cost cap. DP's are spec, they are all the same (except for engines, chassis builders and bodywork) and they can't develop those cars either. Is it that the P2 and DP formula are quite similar (no development yet different engines and different people can build the chassis)?

I follow P1 and thought that P2 was just the slower version, yet allowed the latest technology and development.

[Speed-King]

Current P2 is more or less the ACO's take on the DP-formula... the technical specifications are of course different, but the philosophy is mostly the same. The one big difference there is that GARRA was always comitted to also equalizing engine performance, while the ACO didn't seem to get involved there even if it meant that most of the field would gravitate towards the Nissan engine.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Current P2 is more or less the ACO's take on the DP-formula... the technical specifications are of course different, but the philosophy is mostly the same.

P2 is in a way even more spec than DP. One season Bob Stallings complained that he wished upgrades were only allowed once per year. I don't know how IMSA is handling DP upgrades now, but they could have frozen DP development more than Grand-Am had been doing.

[Maelochs]

P2 and DP are both basically homologated, development-free classes, designed to be economical (compared to P1.) This is why so many people were unhappy with ALMS when the P1 class dissolved--and part of why so few people ever liked DP.

While P2 and dP cannot ever be completely equalized ... a few fewer horsepower for DPs seems to be in order in the opinion of a wide range of people, from uninformed fans like myself to series officials from TUSC and FIA.

What Scot Elkins says basically points out how badly bungled was this "unification."

[CyberMotor]

I think what is at stake here is a philosophy. Was the BoP meant to equalize or was it meant to ensure that the DP would outperform the P2? The cheapest thing would of been to do nothing to the DP and allow the P2's to become the dominant platform.

Instead, costly changes were made to the DP so that this would not happen. I don't think there ever was a desire to equalize and probably never will be. Taking off 10-15 HP is a token amount to appease the critics but not enough to make a difference.

[Matt]

Doing quick math, if a P2 is ~1980lb and makes 450 HP, the new DP, weighing ~2280lb should be at about 520 HP to have the same power to weight ratios. Anyone know what the downforce numbers are between the two?

[jasonjessica09]

Do you think adding the diffuser to the DP cars was a mistake?

[ttdriver2009]

P2 and DP are both basically homologated, development-free classes, designed to be economical (compared to P1.) This is why so many people were unhappy with ALMS when the P1 class dissolved--and part of why so few people ever liked DP.

I assume people were unhappy with the P2 because it was homologated just like the DP. If that is the case, I can now see why people are so upset with IMSA. The P1 cars are gone. Would it make sense to just get rid of the P2 and DP cars, then bring back the P1 cars? That way, we get to see Porsche, Audi and Toyota come back and run. The economical class (GT3) would fill the void for the teams that don't have the money to run in P1.

Seems that in the states, the majority of the fans want to see the P1, GTLM and GT3 cars. I don't understand why there can't be a series with just these three classes. Seems simple to me but I wonder if IMSA doesn't know that.

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by ttdriver2009

I assume people were unhappy with the P2 because it was homologated just like the DP. If that is the case, I can now see why people are so upset with IMSA. The P1 cars are gone. Would it make sense to just get rid of the P2 and DP cars, then bring back the P1 cars? That way, we get to see Porsche, Audi and Toyota come back and run. The economical class (GT3) would fill the void for the teams that don't have the money to run in P1.

Seems that in the states, the majority of the fans want to see the P1, GTLM and GT3 cars. I don't understand why there can't be a series with just these three classes. Seems simple to me but I wonder if IMSA doesn't know that.

There aren't nearly enough US sportscar teams with the budget to run LMP1 right now. As much as I'd like to see it, realistically LMP1 at the national level has been a failure worldwide. The factory teams would only run the NAEC, which would leave the series with only 2 GT classes for the rest of the season.