Audi LMP1 Discussion

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

Do Porsche construct their own chassis? I know Toyota does at TMG. Maybe Audi should look into building a facility to construct their own carbon chassis. It would serve them well and even moreso if they eventually do go to F1.

Let's think about that

If they can establish a good supply chain with an existing monocoque manufacture (external) this is ideel, because:
1. It is a lot cheaper.
2. The quality is from the starting point a lot higher than what they can do themselves.
3. They won't have to keep developing their production methods according to new technologies (something which is developing fast currently), this will be done by the external manufacture.

In other words, for a smaller price, Audi gets their monocoques build with the latest technologies, by people who only do this and knows how to do it, for a much smaller price compared to starting it all up ourself.

However, the future is in carbon composites, not only monocoques for racingcars, but also in road cars. Audi (VAG) will therefor at some point need to invest in a facility able to produce these carbon composites, and why not do what Audi love to brand themselves with: Taking racing technology to the streets.

So, I agree, Audi should try to move all Carbon manufacturing in-house, but not for racing purposes, but more for a long term strategic investment.

[TF110]

Thats what I saying. It will serve Audi (as a whole) well. Sorry I didnt word it right. A big manufacturer is better served with the knowledge and know how of constructing carbon parts. Not just for motorsport. BMW and Toyota have entered a partnership with the research and use of carbon fiber in their road cars. Thats one of Audi's biggest competitors potentially getting a leg up.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Do Porsche construct their own chassis? I know Toyota does at TMG. Maybe Audi should look into building a facility to construct their own carbon chassis. It would serve them well and even moreso if they eventually do go to F1.

I have no clue about Porsche, but it was my understanding that Toyota were actually outsourcing the manufacture of their monocoques, leading to long lead times. I believe at least that this was the case with the TS030 monocoque back in 2012, during which period Toyota struggled to have the required tubs manufactured in time. I believe that this was also part of the explanation as to why Toyota could only contemplate a single-car effort during the 2012 season. It could be that Toyota have since then reorganized differently.

As for the actual reasons behind Audi's urge to rebuild two new cars for the upcoming Bahrain race, we may possibly be reading too much into this. No real explanation has been provided beyond the fact that the two Audi R18 monocoques apparently suffered some "damage" during the last race at Shanghai. Looking at the relevant press releases, Audi do claim that the monocoques were basically changed as a "precautionary measure", which - if true - suggests that the damage is not too severe. Whatever the underlying reason, this at least demonstrates that Audi are willing to fight for the best possible result with the most efficient package available.

I don't mind if this can guarantee a closer fight at the front with the Toyota TS040s and Porsche 919s

[TF110]

It wasnt out sourcing the construction of their car. Iirc, it was the supply of carbon fiber that took time away. Theres no reason they would have someone else make it when they can do it all at the TMG facilities. When they loaned the TF109 to Pirelli for tire testing they discovered that the level of stiffness in their carbon could last for more than a full season of F1. Im not technically astute with the details, but Im sure they learned a lot about the construction and level of performance of chassis' during their time in f1.

[chernaudi]

Audi have changed the tub on the #1 car for the second time in as many days during FP3.

Either YCOM aren't up to the task, or there's a design or production flaw in the R18's tub.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi have changed the tub on the #1 car for the second time in as many days during FP3.

Either YCOM aren't up to the task, or there's a design or production flaw in the R18's tub.

The issue would apparently relate to the undertray hitting kerbs (based on John Dagys' report). I wonder if this issue may be influenced by the restrictions that were imposed by the ACO-FIA back in May in respect of the flexibility of the front part of the skid-block.

This being said, it would seem that this is indeed a weak point in the current design of the Audi R18.

An the unfortunate thing is that the #1 car will not apparently be allowed to take part to the qualifying session.

[chernaudi]

It seems that it'll take too long to repair the car and get it though tech inspection to make the qualifying session.

The Dagys article suggests that the #2 Audi had modifications made to strengthen that area to try and prevent a re-occurrence.

This isn't a first for Audi, as the R15 had issues with the "tea tray" area when it ran off course and either dug into the ground of the front diffuser would try and break it off when it came off the car.

I'd suggest that the FIA/ACO agreeing to allow some flex in that area is the issue, as it flexing and hitting the ground could be what's causing the damage.

I'm glad that it's not a suspension issue, but that could be the issue for why the Silverstone cars needed to be repaired.

As far as I know, Audi have had to use at least 6-7 tubs at various this year. The two for Silverstone (repaired prior to Spa), one car was destroyed at Le Mans, the LM winner has been taken out of circulation and will be in the Audi Museum Mobile soon, and the tubs that have been taken out for repairs after Shanghai/Bahrain.

I know that Audi got the Silverstone cars repaired, but it's that tea tray area that's been a problem at Silverstone and those tubs got reused, could the repairs make them that much more vulnerable to being damaged in the same way?

[Creep89]

In their last issue (11/2014) german magazine SportAuto reported that Audi Sport could suffer a budget drop by 10-15% compared to this year. Today SportAuto states important chief engineers are set to leave Audi for Porsche and Toyota.

[Deleted]

Budget drop in LMP1 alone or P1/DTM/GT3?

Even with 85-90% funding they should still outspend the other factories in LMP. Though obviously Nissan's a question mark

[Creep89]

Sorry, it's actually 15-20% budget cut. It seems they are referring to the P1 budget, not the whole Audi Sport budget.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'd suggest that the FIA/ACO agreeing to allow some flex in that area is the issue, as it flexing and hitting the ground could be what's causing the damage.

That is, I believe, one of the issues that was specifically addressed (at least partly) by the Endurance Committee's decision of May 20th, 2014:

Regarding the front part skid-block, we have observed during scrutineering that each of your cars had some flexibility in order to prevent any damaging of the underside of cockpit in case of unwanted passage out of track or on kerbs.
Formally speaking this contravenes article 3.4 of the LMP1 regulations. However as it seems indispensable and used by all of you, we agree not to apply strictly this article for this specific part. In order to be fair to everybody, we will accept a flexibility in that point of: 10 mm under 500 daN. To be absolutely clear, we make it mandatory to have a stop effect and that this deflection cannot under no circumstances be more than 15 mm.

It would be interesting to know if the competition is facing similar issues. In the affirmative, the ACO-FIA may have to review the situation again as this may become a safety issue.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Creep89

Sorry, it's actually 15-20% budget cut. It seems they are referring to the P1 budget, not the whole Audi Sport budget.

As long as Audi do not have to design an entirely new car next year, I would hope that they can cope with such a budget reduction, even though this will necessarily have an impact.

[Deleted]

The new testing restrictions should (slightly) decrease the amount of needed budget anyway. Though I'm sure the money spent on those extra track days would just be transfered into something else in the program

[Giba]

Originally Posted by Creep89

Sorry, it's actually 15-20% budget cut. It seems they are referring to the P1 budget, not the whole Audi Sport budget.

Interesting, I wonder if the total Audi sport budget is being reduced by that amount or they are moving those funds to be used for the Audi tt cup or new global class one championship

[Deleted]

Can't see the TT Cup being any more expensive than the R8 LMS Cup in Asia.

[chernaudi]

It seems that this is the "Audi to F1" rumor was referring to--the LMP1 budget taking a hit and engineers thinking of leaving if that does happen.

Either that or Audi Sport's engineering department is having some turnover.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The new testing restrictions should (slightly) decrease the amount of needed budget anyway. Though I'm sure the money spent on those extra track days would just be transfered into something else in the program

Theyre already well under the new imposed limit of testing days anyway. Thats not going to cut much if anything.

[CyberMotor]

I think the baton is being passed to Porsche within VAG.

I would surmise that Wolfgang wouldn't mind slowing down the pace of life a bit and enjoy the well-deserved memories. What a run it has been.

Of course, this is all speculation... But, with all the rumors flying around, there seem to be changes happening.

With the 2mj choice and the downgrading of the diesel as a major advantage I think Audi may have lost interest in this hybrid initiative. Audi may surprise us once again next year and come out with advanced hybrid technology that will blow our minds...once again.

So, my guess is that this is either the swan song for Audi or they are getting ready to continue their dominance next year in a way that only Audi can do it. Or, it could be somewhere in between. I think I have all the options covered!

[chernaudi]

The issue for the monocoques is that the front of the floor flexing over the curbs is damaging where the stay is on the monocoque.

Think back to Sebring in 2013, where the winning Audi had a similar problem. Only difference, it was the stay that gave way, not the attachment on the monocoque.

The damage itself is termed minor by Audi, but it's still enough to render the car beyond immediate repair on site. And thinking back to Silverstone, I'd suspect that's what the issue was after the spins/accidents that caused the chassis damage.

Between that and need for a more powerful hybrid system, Audi have a bit to work on for the '15 spec cars. And I wouldn't be surpirsed to see Audi pull a Peugeot and accept a car that's a bit over minimum weight if it's worth it from a performance gain standpoint.

The fact is that as far as pure speed, especially for qualifying and for the tracks with long straights, they'd down on power, and their aero package just shows how much down on power they are down the straights.

Only good thing for Audi at Bahrain is that 1:45-1:46 or so is their race pace it seems based on practice. For Porsche to run that 1:41 and have an average qualifying time of a 1:43 means that tire drop off for the more powerful cars will probably be significant. However, I doubt that their drop off will be enough for Audi to gain much by double stinting.

But simply put, Audi need more power, even if it means a weight bump (Audi didn't want to run the 3.5-4MJ spec flywheel due to risking a forward weight bias, which could be canceled out by the e-turbo equipment), which as we remember, Peugeot's cars were overweight but that didn't hurt them because they had the power to move that weight and then some.

And a stronger front floor solution wouldn't hurt either.

However, the proposed budget cuts and possible staff turnover does make it seem like the Audi board are losing interest in endurance racing. But we do have to remember that from 2012-this year, a lot of money was invested in that new Audi Sport HQ near Inglostadt, so maybe that's the source of the proposed cut since the facility is now completed. But we won't know until word gets out, and Audi have hinted that the evolution of the R18 will be along the lines of what Toyota suggested--an evolution of the current car with detail changes an aim to incorporating the most powerful hybrid system they can get their hands on.

[TF110]

Not sure Audi is going to have some 'blow your socks off' hybrid solution. If they were itd already be looked into. Theyre way behind with the flywheel. Even Porsche's battery system is better. What Porsche are doing helps top speed and acceleration. But they can only do it both for that magic one or two laps. I think Audi would be wise to do the ers-h like Porsche on the turbo side.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The fact is that as far as pure speed, especially for qualifying and for the tracks with long straights, they'd down on power, and their aero package just shows how much down on power they are down the straights.

Audi had the highest top speed (for LMP-H) in qualifying.
287.4 vs 283.7 for Porsche

[chernaudi]

The 287km/h was from FP1, as was the #1 Audi's trap of 269km/h.

Every event this year, Audi have on average been the slowest of the LMP1 cars in terms of top speed. That's where the long straights at Bahrain doesn't help them.

All you have to do is look at the onboards from the WEC's FP2 review video--the Audis would gain on the Toyotas and Porsches in the twisty stuff, but come a straight, it was game over unless the Audi were able to stay close enough to gain back under braking. But comes the old "where's it easier to pass" addage.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The 287km/h was from FP1, as was the #1 Audi's trap of 269km/h.

Apologies. You are right of course, but it still indicates that they are capable of reaching a high top speed. I'm not sure that Audi's issues are not elsewhere.

[chernaudi]

Top speed has been their biggest issue all year. They have the handling stuff down better than anyone, but especially being stuck in 2MJ, there's a penalty for that, especially with the huge amounts of downforce that they've run this year, even at Le Mans.

Audi have that high downforce in part to aid in tire wear, the other part is to aid in cornering and braking. But with the EOT BOP and being in the 2MJ class, it ended up being too much of a compromise. In short, they don't really have the power to use the downforce well because of the need to have extra power to get some top-end speed.

This is where the rumors of Audi increasing their hybrid system power is coming from. It's been confirmed at Estoril that Audi were testing development parts for the '15 cars, and it seems likely that they were for a 4 or likely even 6MJ hybrid system upgrade.

That's also lead to rumors of the return of the e-turbo concept that Audi tested last year. Audi ditched it due to reliability worries and the fact that as it was used for anti-lag, it showed no advantage over the VTG turbocharger concept.

I think that Porsche and F1 cars--as well as the Audi RS 5 TDI concept/design study cars--has shown the way that for forced induction, the e-turbo is probably the way to go, as it can also power a second hybrid system.

Think of it this way, the "old" e-tron quattro flywheel system was good for at least 3.5MJ around Le Mans. What if they go back to that and scale it up slightly? You'll probably end up at 4MJ pretty quickly. And add in the e-turbo powering a second hybrid system? That's 2-3MJ easily as well.

Audi may take a bit of a hit on weight, but the e-turbo itself isn't any heavier than the VTG turbo, the old flywheel isn't particularly heavy for a hybrid system generator, either. And we have to remember that the old Peugeot 908 was consistently overweight compared to the 900kg miminum by a good 20-30kgs. They just overcame that with more power.

It could be worthwhile for Audi to make the move just for the power breaks that Porsche and Toyota got this year, and the tech to do so is already established at Audi with the flywheel and e-turbo systems. Especially as Porsche and Toyota want to aim for 8MJ, the maximum allowed under the current rules for next season. 6MJ for sure should help with making Audi more competitive next season.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The new testing restrictions should (slightly) decrease the amount of needed budget anyway. Though I'm sure the money spent on those extra track days would just be transfered into something else in the program

Assuming that they're even now over or even close to the limit. I doubt.