FR @ Donnington

[Frank_White]

bad luck luck for hamilton with his car computer in the first race otherwise he likely would have a clean sweep of victories this weekend.

[Mr Jinxx]

Hamilton's car is awesome in low-grip situations. So much more grip and traction than any other car out there.

Jiminiz and Coulthard are also benefitting from Manor's set up, looking at the split times. I don't think Lewis needs to put both hands on the wheel - the car looks fantastic!!

Whilst Lewis didn't make any mistakes in race 2 (nor should he have done with that performance advantage) what is clear is that Manor have got THE set up for this low grip track, particularly in the hairpins. A combination of that set-up (wish I knew what they were running!!) and nearly new tyres (only did 3 laps or so from yesterday's race) made the car superb. Lewis will get all the attention, of course, but actually, as the old slogan goes, The Star's the Car.

[bella]

it was definitely one of those 'wow' drives from hamilton. the reassuring part was his occasional lock ups into goddards hairpin, reminding us all he is actually still human.

if manor have *the* set up, surely eurotek's is pretty close??

[Mr Jinxx]

I absolutely disagree with you in this instance, bella.

It was absolutely one of those "wow" setups from John Booth.

My Mum could have driven that car and won. Lewis didn't even have to try. It was easy, and I give Manor all the credit, and I think every other team should be as sheepish as hell, because it is Manor that made them all look ordinary, not the driver.

[Mr Jinxx]

And, yes, Eurotek have a set-up that works in low-grip situations as well, although not as good as Manor. Fortec are also good in low grip situations of course. Motaworld are not in the frame at all in such conditions.

Eurotek however seem stuck with that route, and have not been so quick at the fast big-balls corners/circuits like Thruxton and Snetterton. Manor have the set-up nouse for these circuits, as do Fortec and Motaworld.

As for Lewis reminding us that he is still human, is that an insult, or do you mean that he doesn't make mistakes?? He has the best performing car on the grid, has the backing to make your eyes water, and he makes loads of mistakes under pressure. Only when Manor give him a car that is streets faster than any other car is he able to motor serenely off into the distance. He's a class driver, for sure, but anyone watching could see it was the car that had the performance, not the driver taking it to the limit. I'll say it again, give your credit there to John Booth not to Lewis.

[bella]

i'll give my credit to lewis for not fluffing the start and for driving the car. easy enough to say anyone could drive it but anyone could also lose concentration, etc (too tired to think of alternatives).

of course a good setup is important but it won't help if the driver doesn't know how to drive it...

regarding my comment about mistakes making someone seem more human, well, whatever. that's what i thought anyway. when someone's lapping like that you kind of forget it's not as easy as it seems. well i do anyway.

[Frank_White]

if your mum could have won the race how come jiminez or coulthard did'nt. these are drivers with strong financial backing so i'm pretty sure that they're getting hamilton's setup.

i think that few people would doubt that hamilton would win more races than the rest of the feild whether he was driving for fortec, motorworld or eurotech.

[Dr Venom]

The "Team" clicked which gave Hamilton the car, and his "Class" showed the rest of the field a clean pair of heals.
All credit to the "Team"

[Jonny Apex]

Have to say what a fantastic sight the two Formula Renault grids made at Donington, disappearing out of vew around Goddards hairpin.

And the racing was superb, particularly in the first race. Lots of scrapping.

I think you have to give Hamilton some credit, Mr Jinxx. You still have to drive the thing. Even when he'd had his left front wing removed by Jiminez in that first race, he still managed to set what at the time, prior to his off with Coulthard, was the fastest third sector time!

Lloyd's car, I noticed, was very tail happy under heavy braking for the chicane and two hairpins ...

The star for me, and I'm sure others, had to be Mike Spencer. Two sensational comeback drives. He really is a superb talent.

Rossiter's move on Lloyd down the Craners on the first lap of the first race I thought terrific. Shame he got caught napping into Melbourne and handed back the place!

Sisley's move on Hamilton around the outside into Redgate at the start of race two and Hamilton's move on Sisley just two corners later into the Old Hairpin were also both stunners. Rossiter came so close to taking the lead on that first lap as well, going around the outside of Hamilton into the chicane only to be bounced over the kerbs which dropped him back to third.

All very dramatic stuff and I predict it will become more so at Snetterton in a fortnight. It's that time of season when something has to give. Worryingly for the others, Hamilton, two dropped scores or no, is still leading the championship ...

[No 4]

Jonny A - I agree re Mike Spencer. Two fantastic drives. Seems like he's really gotit together and if he stays for a second season in FR would be a serious contender for the championship.

Meanwhile at the back of the grid!! My son Jamie Morrow had something of a frustrating weekend in his first ever FR races. A 'spinner' took him out in the first and the chaos amongst the middle/back of the pack caused by the rather 'sedate' entry of the pace car, resulted in damage and a retirement from the second. However, he learnt a lot and will be back. Thanks to Jensen Lunn and his guys for all their hard work over the weekend.

[waspy]

Jinxxy, how can all the cars be so different if its a one make series with everyone using all the same equipment?

[bella]

i think something needs to be said for the organisation of the back end of the grid just before the race. the guys at the front got loads of space, whereas spencer i don't think actually had a grid spot and there was barely a few foot between each car in front of him. partly kershaw was to blame in the second race for stopping a metre or so behind his markings but that didn't account for the scarily dangerous nature of it all.
i know that's motorsport for you but it doesn't explain why they're forcing the grids to be larger when they can't accomodate the cars safely.

[No 4]

Bella -

I couldn't agree more.

In the same context the entry of the safety car was potentially dangerous. It crawled out of the pit lane onto one of the fastest parts of the circuit and seemed to go at 30/40 mph regardless of a still tightly bunched FR pack bearing down on it at speed.

In addition lot of the drivers said that whilst there were yellow flags, there was no pace car board until about the end of the pit wall, hence the high closing speed and the impacts at the middle/back of the field.

All this because Cheng's car (which incidentally one of his mechanics had 'repaired' by jumping on a bent wishbone!!!) went off after just a few yards at Redgate, but was parked well down the exit road and therefore no danger to anyone. Madness!

[Jensen]

All this because Cheng's car (which incidentally one of his mechanics had 'repaired' by jumping on a bent wishbone!!!) went off after just a few yards at Redgate, but was parked well down the exit road and therefore no danger to anyone. Madness! [/B][/QUOTE]

It wasnt cheng, although I would love to comment on Mr cheng and hill speed it would not be proffessional to do so, I wonder if the McLaren thing is all it appears, but I believe it was a paston car that broke down on the first corner, and I believe the safety car was out because the marshalls were trying to cause more damage to the already damaged Mussi car in their attempt to lift it via the track rods. But i do agree and did voice my opinion to the BARC re the pace car and its entry speed, the damaged that followed would not have happened if it had gone on track at an expected speed, simple as that and the irony of it is that it pulled into the pit lane at the end of its first lap out before passing the stricken car which was half way down the pit straight !!!!! so what was the point ???.

Guess it makes good TV though.

[bella]

did anyone behind hamilton actually manage not to break their front wings on the back end of the car in front during the safety car??

i think once we start talking about the safety car there has to be a large review of it in lower motorsports as a whole. it's nearly taken out the leader at brands on a number of occasions, it's regularly too slow (btcc at croft for example, matt neal was struggling to stop his engine from stalling or hitting the back of the sc), and isn't deployed enough. that could be a controversial view but i rarely see a formula renault driver taking appropriate action at the site of a waved yellow flag. action must be taken to ensure the safety of the drivers is maintained and if they're not willing to do that themselves then the authorities must make sure they do so instead.

i'm wondering what the financial damage done to each car caused by the safety car added up would be. it's a shame someone can't gather together that information, and bill the organisers for it. it'd certainly get them thinking if nothing else.

[bella]

jensen: it was ben reeves that had stopped on the inside of redgate but they didn't move it. seemed to be in a bit of a dangerous place to me.

i'm not trying to stir it as i know a huge number of marshals are actually on the board and active members. the effort you guys put in is brilliant, and a lot of drivers have a lot to thank you for. BUT. i think more training needs to be given on how not to cause damage to cars once they've retired. it's a lot of money that's being pushed around here, and all it needs is a bit of pushing in the wrong place and it's a couple of grand down the pan.

[Paul Rayner]

I do think that the deploying of the safety car in FRenault and FFord races could do with being looked at. They tend to deploy it at the end of the pit lane, so the length of the pit straight is the only distance a close following field of inexperienced drivers has to slow down in. In my opinion they should send it out so that the drivers only meet it after a corner or two, (as now happens at Brands, where it's deployed around the back of the circuit), so the drivers have more time to respond to yellow flags.

As for Hamilton, I have to say I think you're being hard on him, Mr Jinxx. The car did appear to be the best in the field, all credit to Manor for that, but it's not just the set-up of the car that's important, it's the way you use it, and Lewis knows how to use it, especially in qualifying. He has a different way of going about it to everyone else, can get the best out of his tyres, and does consistently fast laps. He did 4 laps which could have got pole this weekend, and his fastest was only 0.155 seconds quicker than Rossiter's best. A sh*t hot car doesn't give you that consistency as standard.

As for Motaworld, Spencer was really happy with his car this weekend. I know he likes a different type of car to the others, but he was the fastest in the field in the first race, and was only 0.2 seconds slower than Alex in the second. Meneghello also had his best two results of the year, and Susie equalled her previous 2nd and 3rd best results of the year.

We've now got a championship leader who will drop no points at the end of the year so, if they want to beat him, the next few drivers have to outscore him as follows in the last seven races: Lloyd - 45. Sisley - 47. Rossiter - 39. Conway - 70.

[Paul Rayner]

Originally posted by waspy
Jinxxy, how can all the cars be so different if its a one make series with everyone using all the same equipment?

It's a one make formula, so all the cars are equal. But some are more equal than others...
Basically, as in any other area of motorsport, how good a car you can get depends on how much money you can throw at it. More money can buy you a place at the best team - who have the best experience, the best set-ups, and the engineers who know how to make the most of the cars. More money can also buy you more components - things get worn out over time and, although they're all standard parts, you could buy new ones more often. The best teams are also more likely to spot a problem with the car more quickly. Some teams spend money everywhere, some save it everywhere. Although tyres and testing in FRenault are limited during the season, there are still teams and drivers that don't use all the tyres or testing they could, and there are teams that pay extra to go and test more in the winter, or enter other European races where tyres aren't limited.

[littleman]

Two key factors for low-grip circuits Mr.Jinxx.
1. The diff. Are you running tight or loose?
2. The driver. Must be very delicate and precise in these
conditions.Over-driving, trying to compensate for low grip, is
fatal. Let the car run to the level of the grip - for god's sake
don't try to force it.Doesn't look quick but that's what
Hamilton's doing.

[Mr Jinxx]

Busy board...!!

Just because Lewis is the competition doesn't mean I would (knowingly) be unduly harsh on him or unreasonable in my comments. Anyone who does that loses sight of reality, is therefore in no position to address any weaknesses in car or driver (in a motorsport arena), and thus would be a fool.

PERSPECTIVE:

I pointed out the perspective gained by close proximity to the cars and drivers and engineers and data, some of which data is public, other privileged.

It is a personal view too. I have voiced my opinion of Lewis before, that being a class driver who is prone to making mistakes, normally under pressure. So I don't belittle his driving in the 2nd race, as he made no mistakes in a car that was clearly the quickest in the field by miles. I still believe my Mum could have peddled that car round very quickly, but what he did was make no mistakes with the best equipment. A potential F1 driver is not likely to lose concentration in a 16 lap race and he is not likely to panic as there was no pressure, so he did his job and did it well. My point remains that the press will say it was Lewis doing a great job, whereas I believe it to have been Manor that did the great job.

In answer to Frank White's question concerning the other Manor cars, they were superb too:
In qualifying, there were 3 Manor cars in the top 7. Two Fortec one Eurotek and one Motaworld.
In the races, Jiminez finished 4th in the 1st race, and although Hamilton and Coulthard both DNF'd in the early part of the race, Coulthard had already set 5th fastest time in just a few laps. All those 3 Manor cars were in the top 8 of the 2nd race. And neither of those 2 drivers are in Hamilton's class.

Looking at the public data for all the cars, the Manor cars had the tight hairpins sorted far better than anyone else, even Fortec and Eurotek (both of whom run cars that look malleable somehow) and that was game over for the rest.

Lloyd's car went from bad to worse, and as Johnny Apex pointed out, it was squirming horribly under braking and mid apex. Alex he reported, when behind Rossiter in the 2nd race, having enough time at the hairpin to make a phone call whilst waiting to be able to get on the power, because the rear of his car was so recalcitrant. Rossiter was able to get his foot in 2 metres earlier. Hamilton's advantage appeared to be corner entry speed. His car dived into the apex and didn't throw the back out and went round like it was on rails. Lovely to see a car that can do that, even if its an opponent!

In qualifying it was the opposite for Lloyd, there was no front end grip at all. Basically he and the Motaworld team have to start from scratch in setup, because in my layman's trackside observer's view, they are miles away. They do not have a race-winning car where you need grip. High speed circuits are different - they will be competitive there.

As has been said, Mike Spencer drove a great 1st race after not getting out to qualify. He set the fastest time too, albeit on new tyres, in Hamilton's absence. In the 2nd race, everyone still on the same tyres (now Lewis had an advantage, of course) Mike reported his car feeling good, and well-balanced, but it was 2/10ths slower than Lloyd's badly-behaved car, and a full second off Lewis. And that's what's worrying. Mike's dash had gone down, I think, so he could only judge his performance as he came through the field by the feel of the car and the performance of the slower cars around him. If he thought it felt good before seeing the other's times, it means that the Motaworld set-up for these low-grip circuits must surely be fundamentally wrong?

On Tuesday free practice at Donington, there were old F1 cars, warm and sunny, Spencer was 3rd quickest. On Friday it rained. Spencer was 12th quickest, slower than Ben Reeves. The problem is crystal clear, but the answer of course isn't!!

At quick tracks, fast corners, warm weather, high grip, the Motaworld cars will be a force. On low-grip, there is something fundamental missing.

To Johnny Apex, in race 1, Lewis was doing ok with only half the front downforce, which is what you would expect, given that the Manor advantage was all in the slow corners in the 3rd sector.

He had dropped to 5th on lap 1, and was circulating respectably. It was only when he made a mistake on lap 6 that he allowed Coulthard to get up behind him and make a rather optimistic lunge at the old hairpin where they tangled. Again it demonstrates where Manor's setup is so good. It didn't matter about the quick corners - Lewis wasn't quickest in sector 2 - ALL the time is in the hairpins. Those 3 Manor cars were 2/10ths quicker than any Motaworld car in that 3rd sector, Hamilton by 4/10ths over Lloyd. Who needs a front wing in those circumstances??

Also, Rossiter's move at the Old Hairpin on Lloyd (not the Craners) was a good one. Alex said he thought he had it covered, as it is not difficult to overtake there, but left about 4" too much, and Rossiter didn't hesitate to poke his nose in! Alex let him go and got him back on the same lap. Although Rossiter was quicker and was closing lap on lap, he seemed to tire or give up after 10 laps or so and dropped back a little.

Shame Tom couldn't hang on to the lead in race 2 after that move round the outside of Lewis on lap 1, he was kicking himself afterwards. Hamilton's pace was unstoppable once he got back in front, and with no pressure, the race was over.

I have absolutely no doubt that Lewis/Manor will win this championship. Not even the Fortec cars can match that performance. Lewis can only lose it.

Of the remaining races, Snetterton shouldn't be a walkover for him, as I don't believe it to be a track where their new-found setup advantage will benefit them. Motaworld should feature again, as should Fortec.

Brands is between Sisley and Hamilton, and Conway should finally re-emerge from under Rossiter's shadow at his home track too.

Donington again - double header. No doubt which will be the quickest car there, and no chance of doing any appropriate testing beforehand, so Lewis for another easy double there.

Oulton Park - don't know. Hamilton and Lloyd set the pace there at the beginning of the year.

If it rains, Hamilton's set up will be the best, along with Eurotek and Fortec, but it will set the cat amongst the pigeons, as Hamilton will not wish to make any more mistakes, and where easier than in the potential mellee of a wet race? Mind you, he should have it sewn up after Donington.

That was a long post

[Mak]

"And, yes, Eurotek have a set-up that works in low-grip situations as well, although not as good as Manor. Fortec are also good in low grip situations of course. Motaworld are not in the frame at all in such conditions." re Mr. Jinx.

Didn't think Silverstone was a low grip circuit, and didn't Eurotek win a race at Snetterton this year? We'll see at the next race I suppose! I think the weather has more to do with it possibly as most of their development was done in the winter.

[Mr Jinxx]

And by the way. I said before, 3 Manor cars in the top 7 for qualifying. To my knowledge, Manor have never done that before, certainly not in my memory. The same 3 in the top 8 in the race. Who is their engineer?

[Mr Jinxx]

Silverstone certainly is low grip, particularly in the final twisty complex. Tom was quick, but it rained part way through the race, and he was quicker than Hamilton in the dry and in the wettest part of the race, although they both said they made some changes to anticipate the rain. But I don't think Manor had quite hit the sweet spot at that time.

The 2 Snetterton races were won by Fortec and Motaworld. I don't think Sisley was really in the frame there, nor was he at the fast Thruxton circuit.

[Mak]

Fortec last year I beleive at Oulton Park ?

[littleman]

Mr.Jinxx, please read my earlier thread, I'm trying to help you because I'd like to see Motaworld and Alex win the championship.I know who the Manor engineers are,what they are probably doing and how they are telling Hamilton to drive the car.Manor have got 3 or 4 cars in the top 8 before.Just go back to 2000 with Raikonnen,Watts,Jones and Keohane.Alex is in a perfect position to lift the title - Hamilton has already had two DNF's hasn't he - it's not difficult to work out your strategy for the remaining races is it!