Da Matta out - Zonta in ? (now confirmed)

[spider]

Originally posted by JohnMiller
6 race / 2 year rule?

Thanks John, brainfade helped me forget that rule...

It does sound like Trulli hasn't signed for them yet doesn't it! He would be a good option for Williams, I suppose, especially considering the dwinderling number of available proven drivers at the moment. We'll see what happens, but I really hope Zonta does impress this time...

[joe rossi]

I guess from Toyota's point of view it makes sense..they know they are going to drop Da Matta anyway, Zonta is cheap and already an employee, so giving him a run lets them see if he's worth a shot next year. If he performs very well there's no need to spend big bucks on someone else, like Trulli or DC. If he doesn't perform then he's out of the equation for 2005.

The only thing is that in the meantime they completely screw Da Matta's future F1 career..who will take him for 2005 now he's dropped mid season by a very average team like Toyota?

Toyota are right up there with Jaguar in the Personnel treatment stakes..and everyone says Williams are tough on their drivers!

[jj2728]

Originally posted by Snrub


Sort of off topic, but the comments regarding there being no such thing as a learning curve is pure non-sense. Some people take a bit longer to get use to things than others. NO driver will ever be on the pace in their first time in an F1 car let alone consistant.

jacques villeneueve was...
m. schumacher was....
senna was....

[steve_r]

IMO:
I thought Da Matta had a reasonable 1st year, last year.

I doubt that Zonta will be much faster than Da Matta.

I would imagine that it would be very hard for anyone to look that impressive in the Toyota this year. The whole team has done nothing much so far this year, (apart from Panis's V at Malaysia ??)

[Hugh Jarce]

It's all about the future there.

Why procrastinate about the past - if you're going to move things on - then move on!

Panis is history too - it's just a matter of time.

[Testure]

da Matta's a nice guy and it's a shame to see him dropped like this. He doesn't seem to like F1 too much, though, with its politics, unfriendly drivers, lack of fan access, etc. I remember that in 2002, he took a long time to decide to leave Newman-Haas for Toyota; perhaps that was an indication that he's not a typical F1 driver.

Christiano's a good driver and he legitimately beat a hugely more experienced team-mate in his first year in the sport. Maybe he was disappointed with the lack of technical progress this year, but it also sounds like he's been squeezed a little by the politics at Toyota. I dunno. I'll miss him, but maybe now I'll have a chance to chat to him at a ChampCar race next year.

Zonta? He's already had his chance and I think it unlikely that he'll perform as well as da Matta would have.

[BSchneiderFan]

I thought Zonta had a lot of promise when I first saw him in the Mercedes sports car squad in 1998, and was very impressed by the way that, although the reigning F3000 champion, he adapted to an entirely different discipline and won the title. His first foray into F1 was, alas, a disaster (not helped by joining Team Villeneuve), so he has a lot to prove, but the best of luck to him. My suspicion is that he is on the shortlist for the second Toyota seat next year and that Jarno Trulli is far from confirmed.

Alas for poor da Matta. His performances have not matched some of the hype attached to a reigning CART Champion, but then Toyota have also underperformed woefully. I don't see too amny option for da Matta in F1 next year (unless a surprise call to Williams comes), and I think he runs the risk of having his reputation further tarnished if Zonta can reap the benefits of the revised TF104B which da Matta only had for one race.

A thought occurs to me: Carl Haas is reputed to be setting up an IRL team for 2005 - might da Matta rejoin his old boss? He's said that he doesn't want to go back to the States, but if there are no other options..?

Toyota need to settle down once and for all. The TF105 will be an all-Mike Gascoyne car, and they need to sign two drivers on long-term contracts. They can't keep wasting what potential they have by these absurd shake-ups.

[Kicking-back]

People who say Jacques was quick from the off are correct, but remember two things.

He had more testing mileage than just about any rookie in history.

And often in qualifying in 1996, he was almost a second off Damon Hill.

The superiority of the Williams meant that he didn't drop off the front row with that gap.

If he had that gap now, he'd be miles down the grid.

[Kirk]

I'm surprised it happened this fast .. must be much more to this story then we know.

[racefanatic]

You're right - something must have happened. It's just really strange to put Zonta in the car NOW, especially (as some others have said) if they don't plan on signing him as a driver next year anyway.

[Redlake27]

Toyota have got to be ruthless. OK, their cars have been average, but so have their drivers.

Salo and McNish was a steady, if uninspiring combination. Salo had been decidedly average in everything from a Ferrari to a Tyrrell, McNish had tested for many F1 teams but never been promoted. That tells you something.

In 2002, Panis' stock was high following his BAR performances against JV, but since then JV has been 'outed' as not the full ticket. Da Matta was ChampCar champion and marketable in the US. Neither have performed since. So Toyota have nothing to lose.

Ralf and Trulli would be a definite step forward for Toyota. Two proven front runners. No excuses.

[ozrevhead]

There was a rumor/thread on another forum that Toyota want to lend jordan ryan brisco in exchange for jordan using toyota engines.

If that is true (i doubt it since i couldn't find anything on any F1 sites), why wouldn't Toyota give the seat him instead of Zonta??????? Also i have heard Ove Anderson in tele interviews rave about Ryan as well!

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally posted by Redlake27
Salo had been decidedly average in everything from a Ferrari to a Tyrrell

That would be 'average' in the sense of 'leading the German Grand Prix until forced to move over by team orders', would it?

[SKT]

Originally posted by Redlake27


In 2002, Panis' stock was high following his BAR performances against JV, but since then JV has been 'outed' as not the full ticket.

I agree with everything you say Redlake27 except about JV being "outed" as not the full ticket.

It is very unlikely that Panis would ever come close to winning a WDC - he's lucky he's still in F1.

The BAR years for JV has just been diabolical - the first mistake of many was to hire Malcolm Oastler as designer. He is IMO the biggest fraud in F1 - when Willis came in from Williams he has been quoted as saying that Malcolm's design was technically not even an F1 car!

I remember seeing a documentary on the Stewert Team, and interviewer was speaking with Oastler regarding his F1 design philosophy, and for the life of me I cannot remember what he said however, I clearly remember that anyone who held an opinion of F1 design like Oastler doesn't know the first thing about an F1 or any racing car for that matter - and I was completely shocked that Stewert, a man of his expertise, could have allowed this man into his organization. Oastler duped Stewert and BAR - now thankfully he's out from F1 for good, the rouse is up.

Until Willis arrived on the scene, the BAR car was a piece of junk on wheels, it had the consistency of a wet noodle - a total joke of which history agrees.

The struggle for power within BAR, combined with the arrival of Willis basically informing the entire organization that their car is a piece of junk and that they wasted millions on dollars on poor design would make any company looking for heads to roll.

Reynard could only design simple open wheeled cars, he finally realized that an F1 car was an altogether different animal. Oastler was a fraud. Honda got sick of aligning their name brand with a poor chassis, they sniffed it out early but couldn't do much other than hedge their bet with supplying their engines to Jordan as well. Then you the contractual obligation of needing to fulfil JV's very expensive contract, all this came to a head - Pollock got kicked out, Reynard was put to pasture early, Oastler was given the boot after Willis arrived, and Honda decided to stay and put their R&D into full swing after Willis' and Richard's appointment.

BAR would not have ever happened if it weren't for JV and Pollack - they pulled off a major coup that will not be duplicated again in F1 - unbelievable, that's the amazing story.

JV got sidelined, and finally pushed out. For anyone who's ever raced before, it's all about controlling the environment, once you loose control you're a sitting duck - and JV was a sitting duck.

If Williams ever gives JV a second chance at F1, you'll see the true JV "outed". If Williams pairs him up with MW, and they get their car working, and BMW continues to up the horsepower, Williams will give Ferrari something to think about. And the F1 pundits will wax on about how they always knew JV had what it took - IMHO.

[senna12]

Originally posted by jj2728
jacques villeneueve was...

As was his father as well.

Cristiano is the latest victim. In F1, in midfield, you must show you are better than the car, and consistently better than your teammate, particularly if you are an EXPERIENCED rookie, or you're toast. You need to put in at least 1 or 2 special performances over your teammate.

I suspect that Toyota also felt that Cristiano's feedback in testing was not having any beneficial effect on the car.

Good luck to Zonta. I hope he does better than Gene did.

[Kirk]

Well stated SKT and since Willis has come on board the progress of the BAR team has been nothing short of remarkable...of which JV played a large part. I do however think you guys are bit harsh towards Panis. He is partly the cause of Da Matta's exit and although no WDC candidate is certainly better than average.

[darcym]

how is Panis the cause of the Da Matta's exit ?

Do you mean by him not going (for doing the best finish) Da Matta goes by default

[Kirk]

Toyota's vague announcement did compare the 2004 driving records of Panis and CDM. I assumed they were trying to determine, sooner rather than later, who Ralf would be replacing in 2005. At least that's the impression they seemed to be trying to convey. Unconvincingly I might add, I think they're both out.

[BootsOntheSide]

They probably want Panis to continue contributing to developing this year's car, whereas da Matta may offer little in that area.

[Kirk]

My thoughts as well, boots.

[alesi95]

Toyota is sick.

[Snrub]

I suppose I can see why Toyota did this, but it is pretty cut throat. As was mentioned it looks like Ralf and Trulli are going to be the drivers for next year. In terms of being with Toyota these seem to be odd choices because they have historically been rather inconsistant, putting in some odd performances. If I were Trulli and the deal wasn't finalized with Toyota I'd be looking seriously at Williams, even though they have a poor reputation regarding driver relations.

As for CDM and being "hyped as CART champ". Da Matta dominated CART in a manner far beyond what JV did (I wouldn't say JV dominated) and always did it in a very smooth, technical manner. I'm not going to say he's a future WDC, but he's got more than he's shown.

As for being on the pace, if you're destroyed by your teammate then you're not on the pace of what the car is capable of. While JV had some nice performances in '96 he was destroyed by Hill. Not on the pace. His first year was a LEARNING YEAR. When you step into a F1 car you've got to show potential but we've seen far too many known fast drivers look slow and random F3 drivers look good. Some people learn/adapt at different rates, but ultimately no one is going to be immediately at their maximum pace.

As for contributing to car development I imagine there wasn't that much to chose between Panis and CDM. I really tend to think that car development is an area that people over-estimate the driver's importance from a techincal perspective. It's about communication.

[alesi95]

Toyota seem to be making all the mistakes that Honda did when they returned in 2000. Thats why i believe Jordan will be Toyota powered soon.

[Snrub]

Originally posted by alesi95
Toyota seem to be making all the mistakes that Honda did when they returned in 2000. Thats why i believe Jordan will be Toyota powered soon.

LOL, that's funny. Does that mean in three years they'll be close to the front?

[Kicking-back]

Toyota can hire and fire who they want to of course.