WTCC rules from 2009 - what do we think ?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Fechna

You say S2000 isn´t working.

I say: The BTCC has it´s best year since 1999.

Which doenst say much, it tells more about how poor BTCC was in 2001-2003, on the brink of death even, rather then what it is today.
My point was also still more directed towards WTCC, not BTCC and STCC, even if they too is effected by the problems in WTCC.

Originally Posted by Fechna

I say: We have the first working WTCC for 3 years now and a revival of the ETCC for six years.

Sure, which is a great thing! But its not what it COULD be, a World Championship should be way better then this, especially in the part that FIA has in the serie, which is NOT working IMHO. I'm not saying WTCC is boring, cause its not (exept when they go raing on crappy tracks like Brno that fits Touringcar racing worse then polar bears in California.)

Originally Posted by Fechna

I say: There are 4 manufacturers in WTCC that win races.

I'd say 3 competetive ones, "4 manufacturers that wins races" is twisting the facts, even tho Alfa has won 2 races they are rarely really competetive.
But when its only 3 manufacturers in the serie (Alfa not having Manufacturer support) and only 4 different brands in total (not counting one offs), thats not at all what S2000 and WTCC was ment to be! Anything less the 8 manufactuers must be regarded as a failure, really! STCC and BTCC fare much much better with 8-10 different brands (not all factury supported tho) which is a very good result, but why on earth doesnt WTCC have that, when there's clearly interest in racing those cars? I can only think on one thing: Poor organizing from FIA!

Originally Posted by Fechna

I say: There was never a better STCC.

I'd say 98 to 2001 was better! Not by far, but it was better. Especially the 99 season, taht one by far actually. Not sure how long you have really been following STCC closely, but I assume you werent during that time, cause if you where you would most likely have the same opinion as me.

Originally Posted by Fechna

I say: The races are better then there ever were in modern DTM.

Agree on that one. (again exept Brno, never liked that track since Alfa spun Rydell off when leading and heading towards his and Volvos first win in ETCC in 2002) But the cars have never been more spectacular then modern DTM! Which is one point on why to go RWD.

Originally Posted by Fechna

You say, RWD with more power will work better.

I say: DTM has 2 brands only.
I say: DTM- racing suck. On TV and live at ther track. my personal taste. No overtaking, no racing. When there is a race, I rather take a mandatory "pitstop" in front of my refridgerator with a beer and a pickle. I miss nothing.

I never said WTCC should use the same regs as DTM, or anything even close. Adding RWD and getting 50-70hp more does NOT mean it automaticly becomes a DTM clone!

Originally Posted by Fechna

That BTCC isn´t the same as in 1998, o.k. but one reason is, that there is a World Championship now. Another reason is, that nowadays only F1 and Nascar are working on a huge scale without crisis. Look at the sportscar grids or rally WC. The manufacturers aren´t burning money as they were ten years ago.

This is the very point I was talking about when I said you could write an 50 page essay on why ST was so successful while S2000 isnt! And this is the problem. But just cause its a World championship does not mean it should be any harder to make it successful, on the contrary my friend. With the World status it should b easier to attract manufacturers, the problem really is FIA, that does not know, or dont care (like FIA-GT in 98), how to run a big serie with all its complexity, with manufacturers to heavily involved they MUST win races or else they'll leave asap! You need to be bone hard in your dessitions, you cant slack and say: "fine, I'll give you your damn rule breaks!" At the very moment you do the serie is going down. Say what you want about Alan Gow, some like him, some dont, but hes good at what he does, and the same guys at FIA is NOT good at it.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Fechna

You say S2000 isn´t working.

I say: The BTCC has it´s best year since 1999.
I say: We have the first working WTCC for 3 years now and a revival of the ETCC for six years.
I say: There are 4 manufacturers in WTCC that win races.
I say: There was never a better STCC.
I say: The races are better then there ever were in modern DTM.

Add to that 5 teams winning races - SEAT factory, Vauxhall factory, semi-factory BMWs and Hondas (they do get a lot of support) and a privateer 2006 spec BMW.

Originally Posted by racer69

This RWD fetish is well placed, RWD cars are FAR more exciting to watch, particularly when their power output exceeds the grip levels available. That was one of the failings of Super Touring, the cars had more grip than power, meaning they ran around on rails.

It's better racing to see the drivers battling each other, not the car.

Say a 0-2000cc class, 2001-3000cc class, and a 3000-6000cc class. We'll have cars matching their road-going cousins, RWD & FWD, and races throughout the whole field

Touring cars are supposed to represent normal road cars. I.E. Not 6 litre cars (unless we are talking yank/aussie tanks here).

The capacity boundaries should be 1600cc, 2 litres and 2 litre turbo if you want them - which you don't in tourers. And with a formula that close to production you won't have that close racing, it will be a particular car dominating.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

It has been sad to see the BTC rules go. I would have taken them over S2000 any day.

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Touring cars are supposed to represent normal road cars. I.E. Not 6 litre cars (unless we are talking yank/aussie tanks here).

The capacity boundaries should be 1600cc, 2 litres and 2 litre turbo if you want them - which you don't in tourers. And with a formula that close to production you won't have that close racing, it will be a particular car dominating.

The single class structure isn't all that new in relative terms, around 16 seasons the BTCC has been operating on a single class basis (discounting the Production class period) whereas the 30 odd years before that have been filled with various classes - for example a Chris Hodgetts driven Toyota Corolla in Class C (IIRC) winning the outright championship over a large capacity Rover SD1 etc.

However I don't think multi-class structure would work these days for Touring Cars, as the punters need something easy to understand and I reckon that is what attracts the crowds, many of whom I would say Touring Cars is the only motorsport they watch.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Really stupid if they do it.

(Unless Seat, Chevy and Alfa have RWD production models lined-up anyway.)

Alfa have RWD cars, BMW also have FWD (MINI), but they choose not to market it as a BMW...

[Fechna]

I think it would be quite expensive, to have group-n cars rebuild to a completely opposite drivetrain and boost the engine in the described way.

My proposition:

If the drivetrain problem is really as hard as you think, let us use the same standart AWD system that uses the IRC with their S2000 cars. So every manufacturer has to do some ajustments, we don´t have strange FWD to RWD messups (if this should happen I don´t see any argument NOT to go to DTM or Argentinia TC2000 regulations because this cars would not be close to road spec) and every manufacturer can (if they want to) participateor at least sell cars for Touringcar and rally-racing.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Fechna

I say: We have the first working WTCC for 3 years now and a revival of the ETCC for six years.
I say: There are 4 manufacturers in WTCC that win races.

Thisis going round in circles, but again i'll ask how is Super2000 working when they've bent the rules to keep the likes of Seat and Chevrolet competitive (and interested)?

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Touring cars are supposed to represent normal road cars. I.E. Not 6 litre cars (unless we are talking yank/aussie tanks here).

Do you want a global touring car formula for the WTCC to actually be accessable to world cars, or do you want a formula to be European based? I thought you would have liked my proposal, keeps everyone happy

In Australia for example big cars are our normal road cars. Our stock six-cylinder Commodore's and Falcon's have a capacity of nearly 4 litres, the V8 performance models of these cars are over 5 litres, the SS Commodore runs a 6 litre engine, & the XR8 Falcon runs a 5.4 litre V8. Plus the other two local car builders in Australia, Toyota & Mitsubishi, both build large 6 cylinder family cars. Big cars of course are also the go in the USA.

For any set of regulations to claim to be a global set of regs, it should be open to accept cars from around the world (S2000 as it is is a European set of regulations, not a set of regs for world) How far back does your touring car interest stretch? big engined RWD cars in touring car in Europe are not a new thing, hell the BTCC was dominated by V8 Rovers & later 600hp turbocharged Sierra's before the FWD invasion, even one of our Aussie Holden Commodore V8s has won a BTCC round

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

And with a formula that close to production you won't have that close racing, it will be a particular car dominating.

You are contradicting yourself.

You have posted previously how a touring car formula needs to keep it's production links, but don't want a formula too close to production as a particular car may dominate.......

A) So? Shouldn't those who work hardest be the winners, and....
B) You are correct, production based rules (as S2000 is) leads to drama's to keep everyone competitive, and leads to the current farce in the WTCC where the rules are broken (by the governing body!!) to keep manufacturers involved.

[Fechna]

I have a question racer 69:

You come from Australia, you have these big road machines with 4 litres or more, and your great Touringcar series is focusing and representing it.

We in Europe have a marked, where hardly many cars are sold with a engine over 2 litres, many hatchbacks and mostly FWD.

So, whats wrong with a clearly European based (look at the driving cars.. I don´t know it exactly, but I doubt that their are all selled all over the world) WTCC, that focusses and represents it?

And, BTW, why do you think a big engined, production orientated series without equalizing would work? Is there any manufacturer that says: O.K. we´re slow for 5 years but battling for 10th place is worth the money and the efford! Any series that go that way struggles (F1 is the exeption). Just look at the WRC, and compare it to it´s past.

[Gil Abobeleira]

If touringcars in Europe should be all about the cars that are sold on the showrooms, maybe it's time to ban the gasoline-fueled cars, don't you think?

[juicy sushi]

a wtcc should properly live up to that name. it should have technical rules which support the entry of a variety of manufacturers from all over the world. to that end, i'd suggest that making everything go rwd is too problematic. i think fwd, rwd and awd at different weight levels should be permitted. with the engine rules similarly open. allow 2 litre forced induction motors and 3 litre naturally aspirated motors which are either diesel or otherwise. create a rough regulatory window that allows plenty of different machinery to run at relatively the same pace, make sure they're all production-based, and then let things go...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I would like to see in 2009:
- All cars RWD
- 2.5L 350 bhp engines
- saloons (hatchback allowed but no rule breaks)
- shape of cars more like super tourers but without the importance of aerodynamics like during the ST days.

That would be perfect, but will it happen?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by JAG

That would be perfect, but will it happen?

No, because the costs would be silly. I don't want to see silhouettes at all - there's no reason to change the cars from their original drive type.

Keep S2000 how it is. It's nowhere near broke so it doesn't need fixing.

[Valker]

Modifying car from FWD to RWD won't automatically make it a silhouette - and it's not necesserely so expensive either. It's cheaper to build a RWD rally cross car than a S2000 tourer.

[Bramzel]

I don't like the RWD idea. Takes away the true production car feeling and it's no garuantee for succes. Supertouring had great races with FWD, BTCC has great races with FWD, same in STCC. Switching to all RWD just to avoid the whining about the starts is a cheap and ugly solution in my opinion.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Valker

Modifying car from FWD to RWD won't automatically make it a silhouette -

But it is stepping on the slippery slope, isn't it

[Sodemo]

Is this a change wholesale for the entire S2000 regulations, or just the WTCC series?

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

But it is stepping on the slippery slope, isn't it

wouldn't it depend? if it was converted from an awd version of the production car, it would be within the realms of being production based. if it was a case of sticking a driveshaft where there wasn't one before and completely changing the end to which the power goes, then i'd say that's definitely showing silhouette tendencies...

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Is this a change wholesale for the entire S2000 regulations, or just the WTCC series?

The discussions of the new rules are mainly to do with the WTCC, it would be up to the various national championships to decide if they wanted to follow the FIA's lead. Presumebly in most cases that would be the case.

[moonman]

Leave the rules as they are. In the last race I think 19 cars were within 1 second after qualifying and I'm sure it won't be that close if they start making big changes to the rules.
They could use rolling start in both races. And instead of making technical changes to successful cars they could use even more successballast than now.

[touringlegend]

I note that the idea of RWD only has been scrubbed due to the cost implications of modifying car floorpans and building a new rear subframes for those that are not RWD by design.

[Fechna]

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=1492


Good to see, that this dumb idea has come to an end. Maybe now they try to talk BMW into using a 320 BMW with X-trac all- wheel drive for homologation, and then to disable the rear- wheel drive, like the FWD in the GT1 Lambos.

Then all WTCC cars would have the same drivetrain!

[gttouring]

did the lambos realy get saddled with no rear drive?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by gttouring

did the lambos realy get saddled with no rear drive?

I think it was disabling the front wheels

[FIRE]

Are you sure?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Fechna

You say S2000 isn´t working.

I say: The BTCC has it´s best year since 1999.
I say: We have the first working WTCC for 3 years now and a revival of the ETCC for six years.
I say: There are 4 manufacturers in WTCC that win races.
I say: There was never a better STCC.
I say: The races are better then there ever were in modern DTM.

You say, RWD with more power will work better.

I say: DTM has 2 brands only.
I say: DTM- racing suck. On TV and live at ther track. my personal taste. No overtaking, no racing. When there is a race, I rather take a mandatory "pitstop" in front of my refridgerator with a beer and a pickle. I miss nothing.

That BTCC isn´t the same as in 1998, o.k. but one reason is, that there is a World Championship now. Another reason is, that nowadays only F1 and Nascar are working on a huge scale without crisis. Look at the sportscar grids or rally WC. The manufacturers aren´t burning money as they were ten years ago.

I couldn't agree more!

I don't know what others are watching... The Monza round was excellent and so what Germany and UK rounds.

There is more passing in this series than in most racing around the world. 60% of the passing in NASCAR is done in the pits. All of the passing in DTM is done in the pits, hmmm.

S2000 regs are working. Others want to step up and with SEAT making Diesels work, you have peaked the interest if several manufactures. There is "green" movement in motorsports and a desire by OEM's to make relevant race cars that have a direct connection with the showroom.

The ST's while great, they were become exceedingly expensive to build and run.

All racing has gone into cost cutting mode. Top level racing's connection with the aerospace industry has cause cost to skyrocket in less than 20 years. S2000 regs make racing affordable, buy using production cars.

S2000 has always been good, it was BMW and Alfa dominating when it was the current ETCC. SEAT became involved and then Chevy. Now you have team like West Surrey looking to field a team next season and THAT is what you need to make the series grow further. Clearly when you see companies like Tenneco (Monroe dampers/shocks/struts) sponsoring PY Corthals and other indie teams then you know you have outside interest in the series beyond direct factory involvement.

S2000 is working, leave it alone, no tweaking is required...