Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[Deleted]

We've been gone over this before, but in the regional series (ELMS + ASLMS, ------NOT IMSA------) there is no danger from the series "credibility perspective" even if you only ended up having couple of cars in your lead class for a while. These are not series for audiences, but for teams. If they were, we wouldn't have bunch of spec proam classes in them with nothing else. On the contrary, even just a small PRO non-spec category could be seeing as elevating force. Sign that this series can be seen as more than just feeder series like GP2 or GP3 or whatever.

And so, you start the reintroduction of customer market by allowing the privateer P1s in. The current P2s would be pushed back to secondary division - where they belong anyway and where they were for years before - and who knows, that might just bring more interested to P1 privateer from P2 (on top of the spec car / proam force feed debacle). When you are not the top class capable of overall wins anymore, the upper suddenly starts to feel more convincing. And even if not, you still have your own LMP2 category, it's not like in US where you have been forced to run with some fossils within same class. Or killed out altogether.

There is no real incentive to race expensive privateer P1 cars in WEC for some meaningless sub trophy no one even remembers exists, however when you bring back up the opportunity to win overall elsewhere (while still getting accepted for LM), the concept becomes more attractive.

These cars are expensive in WEC, and yes they would still be in the regionals. However the potential ROI could be better with the wins, and it is a lot cheaper to run just in one continent than around the world. Logistics difference alone. Every single P1 team/constructor/engine name that's shown up interest has been European anyway (except SARD and HPD). SO all in all it would be cheaper than now.

Look at the recent Rebellion comments, again. They want to be in a place where they can win (overall) / succeed, incl ELMS, while still getting accepted for LM. Which, as the owners of LMP1 machinery, would take priority over anything even as regional representative.

If ACO modded up the regs so that the current privateer chassis rules went to sth like 2020' even better.

Spec & bop DPis with fake OEM bodyworks, I could care less about

[Deleted]

Look at it from this perspective...

Where can todays ACO Classes realistically win OVERALL?

WITHIN ACO REALM
LMP1-H: LM24, WEC
LMP1-NH: --
LMP2: ELMS, ASLMS, IMSA
LMP3: MGT3Cup LM Support Race, proposed Asian Sprint Series
LMPC: IMSA split class events
CN: -- (/ proposed Asian sprint series??)
LMGTE: IMSA split class events, seemingly big races too!
GT3: Michelin GT3 Cup
JAF-GT300: --
One make GT: --

BEYOND ACO REALM
LMP1-H: -- (Theoretically African Endurance Series and T25 I guess?? ***)
LMP1-NH: -- (+***??)
LMP2: -- (+***?)
LMP3: Vdev, French GT, oneoff endurance races, (+***?)
LMPC: -- (+***?)
CN: One make junior proto series, oneoff endurance races, club circles (+***?)
LMGTE: Oneoff endurance races, (+***?)
GT3: Billion series in every corner
JAF-GT300: Thailand Super Series or whatever it is, maybe Sepang 12h if SRO works it out
One make GT: Billion series in every corner

The only class ticking nothing CONFIRMED is non hybrid P1

Out of these LMP1 is also the only one artificially cornered to one place

[Artur]

Originally Posted by J Jay

If both of you would indulge my penchant for devil's advocate, what would you propose to get more privateers into LMP1? It's clear that simply forcing them out of LMP2 hasn't worked. If slowing down the factory cars is not an option then what else could be done to entice more teams to take part in the top class?

People will probably ask for me to get banned after this but I think ACO/FIA should only do something when the manufacturers go away. Sure, they can have lot's of plans prepared for when that eventually happens but not act before it, imho.

Manufacturers will not accept losing to privateers anyway, so why even bother to try to artificially put the privateers closer on pace?!

Shoot me for it, but my view is that as long as the manufacturers are around, the focus should be on them. When they go away, initially rename LMP2 as LMP1(or any other half-assed solution) and then come up with a proper solution for the following years.

Factories put loads of money into their cars which inevitably makes them much quicker and that will, also inevitably, push privateers away as they are on a much lower tier. If they come up with gimmickies in the regulations, then the whole point of fair competition is over. Rules shouldn't artificially make the privateers as fast the the factory cars(and, naturally, they never will be able to keep up). It would be unfair and kill manufacturers interests as they don't put loads of money into it to lose to "poor" teams

To sums up my view, rules can't please all. They will either attract more manufacturers or privateers. As long as we have 3 manufacturers around(VAG, Toyota, Nissan?), I don't even care about privateers, tbh.

[Mal]

I think it should be as follows:
Class 1- as current p1 but with more fuel options
Class 2 - as new p2 but with free engine and free chassis and lower weight limit.
Class 3 - as new p2

The ACO are confusing things by pretending to let small private teams play with the big boys. The reality is if they allow those teams to beat the manufacturers then the manufacturers will walk.

[Deleted]

Pescarolo speaks about the financial unatrractiviness of privateer LMP again
http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-15110601.html

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Pescarolo speaks about the financial unatrractiviness of privateer LMP again
http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-15110601.html

Because the ACO caving to manu's financially ruined him?

Yep.

[rich07]

So Dave Ryan is now Racing Director at Manor F1. I wonder how this will affect Von Ryan Racing?

[TF110]

Anyone else hear about this Ford "project phoenix"? Im not sure what it is, but it has been mentioned by a few on social media it pertains to sportscars... maybe lmp1.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

Anyone else hear about this Ford "project phoenix"? Im not sure what it is, but it has been mentioned by a few on social media it pertains to sportscars... maybe lmp1.

http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/c...show-1.9798254

According to this it's the Ford GT Project name.

[GT3.14]

Sebastien Loeb has split ways with Citroën for 2016. I hope we see him racing GTs and prototypes with Sebastien Loeb Racing in addition to his Dakar efforts.

[Pontlieue]

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-15111909.html

There has been a meeting in Bahrain regarding the future of privateer LMP1, between ACO, FIA and the current and prospective and future entrantes for privateer LMP1 (Rebellion, byKolles, Strakka, SMP, OAK)

According to the article, especially Nicolet was pushing for help for the privateer LMP1 teams.

Suggested solutions include completely lifting the fuel limit for privateers as well as allowing modified current-spec LMP2 cars into LMP1 (I assume Strakka and OAK are pushing for that).

[chernaudi]

That could mean that the ACO/FIA are also possibly willing to put off the 2017 rules, or at least the parts that outside of a grandfather clause would essentially require everyone to build new cars.

Interestingly, Audi and Toyota (who will also have new cars next year) and possibly Porsche are asking to have the new rules introduction slowed or pushed back a year or two.

[Deleted]

Modified current spec (assume coupe) LMP2... ehh how would that solve anything, other than cut costs a bit... that's just avoiding issues at hand and dumbing it down

[chernaudi]

Current LMP2 coupes are built to LMP1 crash regs, so I'm guessing the theory is take the current LMP2 tubs, narrow the bodies to 1900mm, and put a LMP1 spec engine in them.

If they don't narrow them, that could leave the door open to 2000mm wide cars again.

[Coach Ep]

Or you take the new-for-2017 P2 rules, get rid of A) cost cap, B) limited number of chassis constructors and C) single engine supplier and voila: P2 'Plus' aka P1 'Privateer' is born!

Rebellion + ByKolles can continue to use their current cars in 2017 if they want to.

[Deleted]

The costs would still be much higher than in P2 not only because of the initial chassis mod, but due to there not being cost cap and how you can/should keep developing the overall package. You could only race it in WEC too.

It would possibly create clone looking class to P2, with not too dissimilar performance, who wants that? In fact the gap to hybrids would probably only grow with these sort-of-P1s. And most of all the incentive to build chassis of your own, or even ordering real LMP1 customer car would be lower, if you could just rent some modified P2 with presumed spec parts and electronics from pre selected group.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The costs would still be much higher than in P2 not only because of the initial chassis mod, but due to there not being cost cap and how you can/should keep developing the overall package. You could only race it in WEC too.

It would possibly create clone looking class to P2, with not too dissimilar performance, who wants that? In fact the gap to hybrids would probably only grow with these sort-of-P1s. And most of all the incentive to build chassis of your own, or even ordering real LMP1 customer car would be lower, if you could just rent some modified P2 with presumed spec parts and electronics from pre selected group.

The costs may be higher than p2 but they would be lower than developing your own p1. On the time sheets, the current p2's aren't too much slower than the private p1's. Drop some weight and add some power and the p2's could be at p1 privateer pace with little investment. Then if the teams wanted they could develop their aero for further gains. You can probably give me a list of reasons it won't work, but nobody thought DP's could drop weight and get faster with more power and aero tweaks but they did. So I'd say it's worth a shot if the ACO is interested in keeping privateers in P1.

[Deleted]

I doubt you could easily get the current P2s even with released cost cap and power increases doing more than 11,5 second faster laptimes at Le Mans, like Rebellion did this year.

In the end, it could mean nobody building cars of their own, except the works teams. P3s choosing from the spec P3 list, P2s choosing from the spec P2 list, and P1s choosing from again P2 list...

If they do this, there is no reason in my eyes to call them P1 anymore... they will be the new P2, and the other two P3 and P4

But it's still just a suggestion

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I doubt you could easily get the current P2s even with released cost cap and power increases doing more than 11,5 second faster laptimes at Le Mans, like Rebellion did this year.

In the end, it could mean nobody building cars of their own, except the works teams. P3s choosing from the spec P3 list, P2s choosing from the spec P2 list, and P1s choosing from again P2 list...

If they do this, there is no reason in my eyes to call them P1 anymore... they will be the new P2, and the other two P3 and P4

But it's still just a suggestion

How do you know unless you try? 100+ more hp -50+ kg and youre gaining a lot of time.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by TF110

How do you know unless you try? 100+ more hp -50+ kg and youre gaining a lot of time.

One friend told me that 50 kg represent´s 3,5 seconds in Le mans... 100 bhp i don´t know!!!!!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

One friend told me that 50 kg represent´s 3,5 seconds in Le mans... 100 bhp i don´t know!!!!!

Thats sub 3:30's on lmp2's if true.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TF110

How do you know unless you try? 100+ more hp -50+ kg and youre gaining a lot of time.

It's not that simple though, particularly on the engine side. If they start at 600hp, that's a 16.7% increase that could likely go beyond what the Gibson (or any engine supplier) could cope with. Principally it's much more than the engine was originally designed for, and if it does prove too much then all the quick running means nothing as the car sits in the garage. Similar arguments can be made for decreasing the weight if it goes beyond removing ballast, trying to find the last couple of kilograms could take components beyond their tolerances.

I'm not saying "improving" LMP2 is a flat-out bad idea, but if you want to really close the gap between privateers and manufacturers then the factory cars need to be slowed down significantly as well.

[Deleted]

Another issue that comes once you start introducing beefed-up-P2s is that you will almost certainly need to apply inter class BoP - currently entirely absent - between them and the REAL P1s, like the CLM. I can already imagine DP-P2 styled mess, where the party with the more politics power gets upper hand.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by J Jay

It's not that simple though, particularly on the engine side. If they start at 600hp, that's a 16.7% increase that could likely go beyond what the Gibson (or any engine supplier) could cope with. Principally it's much more than the engine was originally designed for, and if it does prove too much then all the quick running means nothing as the car sits in the garage. Similar arguments can be made for decreasing the weight if it goes beyond removing ballast, trying to find the last couple of kilograms could take components beyond their tolerances.

I'm not saying "improving" LMP2 is a flat-out bad idea, but if you want to really close the gap between privateers and manufacturers then the factory cars need to be slowed down significantly as well.

Lmp1 doesnt have spec engine restrions. So I dont get the point in saying something about the gibson. Theres an AIM out there waiting to be scooped up. As for weight, the Rebellion (Oreca 05 based) has been lower than 850kg. They said that they can go as low as 790kg iirc. So you already have a chassis on the p2 grid that can reach the 850kg mark and lower. And you have at least 2 engines ready for p1's. Its obviously not that straight forward, but thats to be expected. Theres fixes but the rule makers need to realize theres certain aspects that could be opened up to private teams like more freedom in aero.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TF110

Lmp1 doesnt have spec engine restrions. So I dont get the point in saying something about the gibson. Theres an AIM out there waiting to be scooped up. As for weight, the Rebellion (Oreca 05 based) has been lower than 850kg. They said that they can go as low as 790kg iirc. So you already have a chassis on the p2 grid that can reach the 850kg mark and lower. And you have at least 2 engines ready for p1's. Its obviously not that straight forward, but thats to be expected. Theres fixes but the rule makers need to realize theres certain aspects that could be opened up to private teams like more freedom in aero.

Apostrophes, please!

It's not about restrictions or no restrictions, Gibson or otherwise. My point is that if you build an engine (or any part of a car) to perform at a certain level, then suddenly asking for a lot more from it will cause problems. For instance, the uprated engine may not just present "typical" reliability issues, but there could also be knock-on effects on installation, electronics, suspension etc. At some point there's no more room for plasters.

As an aside, I'm starting to wonder about that Judd V10. In theory it's ideal but I don't think we've heard anything about it being picked up; it's no good sat on a shelf.