[LM24] Nissan return to Le Mans (G56)

[TF110]

Audi's diesel being road relevant was their reasoning. Nissan gets slack because they want to try something new also? Sounds like they want a computer controlled racecar. A real life video game almost. The "zero fatalities" hints towards that. But I think the human element will always be a factor.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by deltawing

If they are lobbying, could it be because they actually want to win, not just build a car and participate?

It's because they want to sell cars.

I also disagree with the notion that racing is solely about winning. There has to be something in it for you - or else why spend the money? That something differs for everyone.

[joeb]

I think Nissan lobbying to get the ACO to open things up a bit more would be a good thing. I personally felt that the 2014 rules were still a bit restrictive. The article did say that Nissan has a concept they are floating to the ACO that they think fits inside the rules but is waiting to hear back if the ACO agrees.

The Nissan LMP1 will be distinctive looking if they get their way, and I can't argue with that.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

If I understand the article correctly, they have a design which they think complies with the rules, but they want a clarification, if it does, because it is quite a radical design.....

That is what it sounds like. This particular line:

"We have a concept that would conform to those regulations, but now we have to check if it conforms to someone else’s view"

Sounds like things were done according to the rules, but the fear is once the other teams see it, they may go "Oh, nooooo, this should not be allowed even if the rules say nothing about it".... We have seen this happening in F1 all the time, someone clever comes with an idea, makes it happen in mid season, it meets the rules requirement, but all the other teams complain and so it gets banned after few races

[Machin]

I guess the only thing stopping Nissan (or anyone else) from making an 850kg, 500bhp+ Delta-layout LMP1 is that the rules say the tyre width can be 14" maximum, whereas I'm guessing they would want to have wider rear tyres to allow for the rearward weight bias.

I say; let them have wider rear tyres if they want (with correspondingly narrower front tyres), just don't let them have lower weight and underfloor aerodynamic freedom (unless everyone else has that freedom too).

[deggis]

Originally Posted by deltawing

That is what it sounds like. This particular line:

"We have a concept that would conform to those regulations, but now we have to check if it conforms to someone else’s view"

Sounds like things were done according to the rules, but the fear is once the other teams see it, they may go "Oh, nooooo, this should not be allowed even if the rules say nothing about it".... We have seen this happening in F1 all the time, someone clever comes with an idea, makes it happen in mid season, it meets the rules requirement, but all the other teams complain and so it gets banned after few races

Difference to F1's bans is that the teams had the ideas and made them happen instead of just flirting with the media. Nissan is completely hiding the concept if one really even exists and being very vague. It sounds more like they know it doesn't QUITE conform to the rules, so let the lobbying begin.

[Salamus]

Nissan is putting the ACO in a tough position with this quote: Palmer hinted that Nissan could look at other races, including the Nürburgring 24hrs that has previously allowed experimental entries from Porsche hybrids and hydrogen-powered Astons, as a showcase for a future radical race car if it can’t come to an agreement with the ACO. ‘We simply won’t go to Le Mans if we have to conform.’

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Machin

I say; let them have wider rear tyres if they want (with correspondingly narrower front tyres), just don't let them have lower weight and underfloor aerodynamic freedom (unless everyone else has that freedom too).

Then, manufacturer X wants bigger thing A and in return of smaller thing B and so on. This will quickly lead to a route called can of worms.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by deggis

Difference to F1's bans is that the teams had the ideas and made them happen instead of just flirting with the media. Nissan is completely hiding the concept if one really even exists and being very vague. It sounds more like they know it doesn't QUITE conform to the rules, so let the lobbying begin.

Come on now, give them sometime. Porsche started their LMP program in 2011, so it took them 2 years to bring a car to go around a track. Shall we give these other guys some time so they can produce something?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Come on now, give them sometime. Porsche started their LMP program in 2011, so it took them 2 years to bring a car to go around a track. Shall we give these other guys some time so they can produce something?

I have been giving them time since the original DW involvement. Porsche also started their program with an announcement saying an exact date when the return is going to happen (and even made it way before the 2014 regs were finalized). Do you think Nissan is going to go full steam ahead with the supposed concept without a green light? [In this case actually assuming they have a real concept and only some parts of it might be questionable.]

[TF110]

Who cares? Not everyone has to do lmp1 on your schedule. Nissan already dominates lmp2 so you cant say they have no involvement. This is a reason why their word should hold weight in talks like this. They have basically provided a whole class with the engine of choice. If they want to run more electric power or something within reason while conforming to the car regs, they should be allowed.

[Mal]

All manufacturer P1 teams will push the boundaries of the rules - its the nature of the beast. The difference here is that Nissan is making a song and dance about it for publicity reasons whereas in the past most teams have kept it secret.

If Nissan finally step up to the plate after tinkering with Le Mans for several years now then I will be pleased. If they bring new technology then great it is this choice of technology that is attracting tams to sportscars at the moment.

After getting on the starting blocks in the late 00's then being killed off by recession - maybe we are finally entering a new golden era?

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Mal

After getting on the starting blocks in the late 00's then being killed off by recession - maybe we are finally entering a new golden era?

Too soon to speak. Many were considering 2012 the new golden age when WEC was revived and Toyota returned but then Peugeot pulled out. Things change quickly in motorsport, so I would never consider an era golden until I see it on the track. Is there potential, yes.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Who cares? Not everyone has to do lmp1 on your schedule. Nissan already dominates lmp2 so you cant say they have no involvement. This is a reason why their word should hold weight in talks like this. They have basically provided a whole class with the engine of choice. If they want to run more electric power or something within reason while conforming to the car regs, they should be allowed.

Previous participation is absolutely not a reason to give any benefits to one manufacturer only. If you want to go for this route, I can make equally bad cases for Porsche and Audi too: Porsche should get thing X because participation since stone age and Audi should get thing Y because past 15 years.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Nissan is putting the ACO in a tough position with this quote: Palmer hinted that Nissan could look at other races, including the Nürburgring 24hrs that has previously allowed experimental entries from Porsche hybrids and hydrogen-powered Astons, as a showcase for a future radical race car if it can’t come to an agreement with the ACO. ‘We simply won’t go to Le Mans if we have to conform.’

Demands, demands, demands. And nothing to show for it.

Nissan's way of going racing surely isn't the most likable.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Nissan's way of going racing surely isn't the most likable.

They might have found a way to get new fans, but they sure have found ways to get rid of the existing ones.

[Simmi]

I think people need to put this into perspective.

This is a major manufacturer openly talking about going to LMP1. Sure they don't want to pour money into something that doesn't reflect or necessarily benefit their roadcar range. But they could just not go to LMP1. They could do absolutely anything else with their money.

Yet they are still being blasted. For trying to engineer something we all want.

I sometimes think if a head of a manufacturer looked at a forum like this. What would they think. They'd probably think 'why do we bother?'

[Acid09]

First off, no manufacturer will base the decision of a multi-million dollar prototype programme on what's happening in some forum.

And second, Nissan's way of doing things just reeks of dishonesty. Everything's always an excuse for them not to do stuff. "We would have done it if only..."

I don't see other manufacturers doing that and if they do it they do it behind closed doors. I'm done giving them credit for "at least they're thinking about it". Other manufacturers do that too, but they don't exploit it for PR.

[deltawing]

Guys, thinks are way, WAY more complex than what it looks like from reading articles.... If you were the decision maker in a multi billion dollars business, I bet everyone of you would be doing exactly what they are doing. These are public listed companies, with shareholders who's ONLY desire is to make money and who want every dollar to be accounted for. It is so easy to say "Well, XYZ company should just man up and spend 200 million dollars so I can see one more car in a race, while I am eating my popcorn and drinking my beer with my buddy on the couch".

Can anyone of you write a few pages sound business plan on how to execute an LMP1 program in say 3 to 5 years and how to transform that into profit, completed with a very sound spreadsheet where it is clearly visible how every dollar you spent comes back to you through a complex matrix, being of course multiplied several times?

South park...

1. Collect underpants.
2. ???
3. Profit

[Acid09]

Again, I'm not slamming them for maybe not building an LMP1, most manufacturers don't do that.

I'm criticizing them for publicizing every step along the way and using every tiny thing as political leverage. I can't remember any other manufacturer coming out with so many public demands before they were willing to commit.

[deltawing]

I am not in disagreement with what you are saying. Emotionally I also want to see all this story develop in a completely different way, but the "business" part of this will always win and they are going to do the best (in their view!) they could possible do to obtain what they want..... we had the conversation about Gravity sometime ago. I say we live with it, it is easier that way

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

If I understand the article correctly, they have a design which they think complies with the rules, but they want a clarification, if it does, because it is quite a radical design.

I would really like to see a radical design within the current LMP1 rules. What I wouldn't like would be another car built outside the regulations getting lots of publicity.

It's clearly way outside of the conventional LMP1 rules, but then there's the clause that the ACO can allow non-conforming cars if they think it would be a good thing. It potentially does comply under that clause of the rules.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Again, I'm not slamming them for maybe not building an LMP1, most manufacturers don't do that.

I'm criticizing them for publicizing every step along the way and using every tiny thing as political leverage. I can't remember any other manufacturer coming out with so many public demands before they were willing to commit.

Agreed.

[TF110]

You mean the interviews with them? People complain about publicizing things when the media is the one blasting it out there. Then theres criticism if nothing is being done. Whats different here than the diesel being written in for Audi or Peugeot? No one knows. So this dumping on nissan without specifics is just silly. Nobody knows what exactly they want.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

You mean the interviews with them? People complain about publicizing things when the media is the one blasting it out there. Then theres criticism if nothing is being done. Whats different here than the diesel being written in for Audi or Peugeot?

With diesel it was different: only one manufacturer was involved so ACO was kind of forced to do that. That's no longer the case. Besides, diesel was allowed three years before R10 debuted, but obviously the idea did not drop from the sky.

No one knows. So this dumping on nissan without specifics is just silly. Nobody knows what exactly they want.

Might actually help if there were some specifics. Since they don't tell any specifics about the concept, it might as well as be complete vaporware. Not even whether it is about the powertrain or shape:

"We have a concept" / "But we have to have a solution different to Toyota, Porsche and Audi" / "We want something to race, but we want to stand out."

Ah, the ambiguity.