Audi LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

Having seen the new Pug 908 (and in deed, that's what it seems that the car is called), maybe we're a little premature on saying that the Audi R18 was in sprint race spec at Sebring. Considering that the 908 evo has the same diveplanes and such as the ur-908, I do think that Audi has some high downforce tricks up their sleeves for Spa, Imola, and the rest of the non-LM ILMC circuits.

Obviously, Peugeot know what they're doing, and so does Audi. It does seem now that Audi may've designed the R18 along the same philosphy as the R8 and R10--reach a target level of drag for LM, then pile on the downforce for sprint races. The new 908 carrying over the old 908's sprint racing package may prove this theory for Audi.

After all, as I said, when Audi tested their revisions for the R15 last year, the car was in LM spec, and raced as such until Silverstone.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Obviously, Peugeot know what they're doing, and so does Audi. It does seem now that Audi may've designed the R18 along the same philosphy as the R8 and R10--reach a target level of drag for LM, then pile on the downforce for sprint races. The new 908 carrying over the old 908's sprint racing package may prove this theory for Audi.

According to http://www.peugeot-sport.com/en/endu...es-fronts.html the new 908 is producing a lot less downforce than the previous:

Given the big reduction in engine power resulting from the 2011 regulations (a fall of approximately 150hp), we had to take a fresh look at the trade-off between aerodynamics, drag and downforce. The latter has been significantly reduced in order to maintain a reasonably high top speed.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.peugeot-sport.com/en/endu...es-fronts.html the new 908 is producing a lot less downforce than the previous:

Well, why fit the old aero package for the press photos? If they're not going to run it, why bother.

Of course, Audi and Peugeot probably trimmed downforce in other areas, and will use diveplanes and gurneys as tuning devices outside of Le Mans.

[Mal]

Of course both Pug and Audi will have designed the car will LM as their principle target because that is exactly what it is.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Well, why fit the old aero package for the press photos? If they're not going to run it, why bother.

Sorry, but I don't get your point.

The 908 shown today in Paris is probably the Le Mans low drag aero, because the front fenders are mostly closed: see https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_B...1_LM_90X37.jpg

On the 90X testing pictures we got earlier from Peugeot they were using only one diveplane: see http://www.mulsannescorner.com/Peugeot90X-PS6.JPG

The computer generated/enhanced pictures on the other hand have a full set of front fender louvers, which suggest more downforce/drag: see http://dlstatic.speedtv.com/imageser...1w/575x459.jpg

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Obviously, Peugeot know what they're doing, and so does Audi. It does seem now that Audi may've designed the R18 along the same philosphy as the R8 and R10--reach a target level of drag for LM, then pile on the downforce for sprint races. The new 908 carrying over the old 908's sprint racing package may prove this theory for Audi.

The 908 was and is, build for Le Mans only, and then modified to fit other circuits.
Personal i judge the 908 Evo to be more specific Le Mans, than the R18, with the R18 seeming very aggressive (being based on the R15), and therefor might not have the optimal downforce/drag levels at Le Mans.

But i think the winner of Le Mans this year, is the one with the best engine, and not aero. (and somehow seeing Peugeot winning that battle)

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by CTD

But i think the winner of Le Mans this year, is the one with the best engine, and not aero. (and somehow seeing Peugeot winning that battle)

It'll be a fascinating battle. I expect the Peugeot to be quicker and the Audi more economical. I would also anticipate a Peugeot victory.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by CTD

But i think the winner of Le Mans this year, is the one with the best engine, and not aero.

Winner is probably also the one who manages to survive ACO's pre-event balance of performance -tweakings with least taken damage. I'm absolutely sure Audi will gladly sacrifice the early ILMC events (or title altogether), if that's what it takes to win Le Mans

[gwyllion]

A comparison of R18 and new 908 on http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...12400115457408

The R18 would look great in this livery: http://www.endurance-crea.com/news/1...e-ses-r18.html

[MihokS5]

New pics from Sebring test:

http://www.fourtitude.com/gallery/ga...sting&start=24

wow!!

[Tom87]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

A comparison of R18 and new 908 on http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...12400115457408

The R18 would look great in this livery: http://www.endurance-crea.com/news/1...e-ses-r18.html

That's an instant improvement! Side profile has never been the problem for the R18 mind you...

[Porsche917K]

I always liked the 908 better than the r10, and r15's, but that r18 at least in black looks awesome. Those headlights are something else as well... I can't wait to see it in its full livery.

[Tim the Grey]

Every new car in bare carbon looks fabulous. sadly, they then wrap them in sponsor logos, etc.

Booh! Hiss!

Audi, be brave, just put a flash colour on the nose and mirrors, and leave it bare!

[chernaudi]

Having looked at the R18 and how it seems that the whole car is lower than the R15 is, could Audi have backed off on the zero-keel concept that the R15 had used, and could that have been the issue with the R15's handling to begin with? It's hard to see that the 908x will be using zero-keel, at least to the extent that the ARX-02 and the R15 had. And with the tub being lower, could Audi have toned down the zero keel and just run a more aggressive front diffuser to get the front aero grip back (and improve front end CG)?

And is there any possiblitly that the R18 might be using a version of the inerter damper/J-damper that the 908 was rumored to have used in the past? If the J-damper is a take on the third spring/shock deal that LMPs have used for a few years, it can't be hard, if packaged properly, that the J-damper can't be interchanged with a conventional third damper.

I guess that we'll get answers if someone in the comming days/weeks/months can get a shot of the R18 being worked on, like everything else...

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Porsche917K

I always liked the 908 better than the r10, and r15's, but that r18 at least in black looks awesome. Those headlights are something else as well... I can't wait to see it in its full livery.

Personally I'd disagree.... The Peugeot looks a lot better to me......

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Personally I'd disagree.... The Peugeot looks a lot better to me......

Let's wait until we see the Audi in its full livery as well... but yeah, for now I agree, the new 908 in its livery looks (apart from the fin, obviously) more elegant than the R18; the R18 from the front in carbon fibre black just looks evil and angry.

[Aysedasi]

Having said that, 'evil and angry' is no bad thing! And at least the darn thing has a roof at last - praise the Lord! IMO it's actually the fin that makes the difference - the Audi fin seriously detracts from it's appearance, whereas the Peugeot fin doesn't seem to in the same way.

[TF110]

I'd rather the Audi fin, I think the air scoop on the Peugeot is too big. Maybe they'll shrink it, but I think Audi's flows better. As a whole though, the 908 is better looking IMO, but the Audi is no slouch, finally as a coupe!

[gucom]

Personally I love the batmobile / WWI death machine looks of the car in black. I'd be absolutely delighted if Audi were to race it like that... too bad it will never happen!

[chernaudi]

First photo of the R18 with it's front end detatched...sort of: note the other R18 and a group of mechanics in front of the #2 R18--Audi obviously playing coy here. In HQ on Flicker from Audi of America: http://www.flickr.com/photos/audiusa...7625830018771/

And what's with the holes (or whatever they are) in the front fenders of the #1 R18 in front of the louvers--sensors or attatchements for them?

Also shows how cramped the cockpit is--plenty of head room, but only room for two--and that's assuming that they're very close friends! At least there may one day be a two seater R18 like with the old Bentley EXP Speed 8, unlike past Audis, with the cockpit divider and no provisions for passengers.

In all seriousness, I do remember the '03 Bentley Speed 8's cockpit being wider--is the Bentley's tub wider, or is the Audi taller?

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

In all seriousness, I do remember the '03 Bentley Speed 8's cockpit being wider--is the Bentley's tub wider, or is the Audi taller?

Completely different regulations

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

Completely different regulations

Indeed, I believe it was Elleray who said that the new regulations (post 2004) generated closed cars with even narrower cockpits than the pre-2004 regulations allowed.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/lmpelleray.html

Though looking at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/audiusa...7625830018771/

I'm more interested in what the hole that's been covered over could be for that's in the lower "notch" of the headlight. Clearly has been covered and bondo filled. Brake cooling experiment?

[chernaudi]

Seems to have been on the R18 from the beginning or early on as it appears in press photos--look where the Michelin Bib logo is below the headlights, and in this HQ photo, you can see the parting lines for the cut out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/audiusa...7625445912021/

Considering that one can probably make out where it says "Audi R18 Steering Wheel" on the back of the said item, the cutout stands out more than even that. Could be supplmentary brake ducting for the ILMC rounds at certain tracks, since the 908 and the ARX-02 ran their brake ducts on the inboard side of the front fenders to keep as much of the ducting out of the diffuser air flow as possible. Combine that with how much more "arched" the outboard diffuser section is and how much lower the front of the tub/bodywork seems to be, maybe Audi are having concerns about front brake cooling at shorter tracks than LM and at least tried the idea.

Otherwise, they could be maintainence hatches, like the doors on the LM 908's nose the past couple of years, which were though to be detatchable panels for air flow, but were there to allow the nose to be removed (provide grip on the nosebox). Could be something for either the light clusters or a place to house sensors. We probably won't know until we get a clear shot at the R18's front end and the detached nose section--which might not happen until Spa.

[TF110]

There's lots of 'holes' it seems, some maybe for things you suggested, and then the 'cut outs' look like they are removable parts of the bodywork. I do believe they may be for things like brake ducts and such.

[chernaudi]

Since the Sebring test started yesterday, does anyone think that the R18 or the 908 can run 1:44-1:46 lap times? The Lola Aston Martin ran a 1:50 yesterday, and LMP2s ran 1:45s in qualifying in 2007, and one or two of the Porsche RS Spyders that year ran a 1:46 in the race.

Are we effectivly back to 2007 laptimes now with the power reductions, or do the diesels (grandfathered or new) have an advantage with the wider tires (newer cars) and huge reserves of torque?