HRT for sale

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

To be ruthless for a moment, HRT had been pretty hopeless, and existed largely to keep Marussia off the back of the grid.

To be fair, Marussia were 12th in 2010 and 2011. This year was the first year in which HRT finished at the back of the field.

[p-matt]

But Marussia have always been well ahead on pace. HRT managed to luck into a few 13th places in races of high attrition.

HRT going is not a huge loss really. Let's just hope that Marussia and Caterham finally make some strides forward this season.

[Marbot]

Who's next?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by p-matt

But Marussia have always been well ahead on pace. HRT managed to luck into a few 13th places in races of high attrition.

HRT going is not a huge loss really. Let's just hope that Marussia and Caterham finally make some strides forward this season.

So F1 has decided finishing the race is no longer important?? Guess McLaren would vote for that given their speed versus finishing record. Sorry but making a car that makes it to the end is the only way to score points and thus makes it the better car/team.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

To be ruthless for a moment, HRT had been pretty hopeless, and existed largely to keep Marussia off the back of the grid.

In that case Marussia only exist to keep Caterham off the back of the grid. Caterham only exist...

...And Ferrari only exist to keep Red Bull off the back of the grid.

We can work up the whole field with that logic and just watch Vettel driving round on his own next year.

It is a shame HRT have gone. I just hope Marussia and Caterham can keep going and move forward next year.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Who's next?

Good question... Marussia ?

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by awrb

In that case Marussia only exist to keep Caterham off the back of the grid. Caterham only exist...

...And Ferrari only exist to keep Red Bull off the back of the grid.

We can work up the whole field with that logic and just watch Vettel driving round on his own next year.

It is a shame HRT have gone. I just hope Marussia and Caterham can keep going and move forward next year.

No. HRT have limped through every season and stayed one step ahead (usually) of the 107% rule. No sign of progress, no sign of stability, no sign of order.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

No. HRT have limped through every season and stayed one step ahead (usually) of the 107% rule. No sign of progress, no sign of stability, no sign of order.

That puts it succinctly enough. Perfect summary. As much as I would like to have seen them suceed, it's off the the F1 rejects bin with these lot.

Its easy to be harsh on the three new teams, but in fairness they were all introduced to F1 thinking that all teams will be subject to huge spending cutbacks, and they were setup with this in mind. The cutbacks didn't happen, so it's no surprise that the back three rows of the grid have been filled with their cars.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by steve_r

That puts it succinctly enough. Perfect summary. As much as I would like to have seen them suceed, it's off the the F1 rejects bin with these lot.

Its easy to be harsh on the three new teams, but in fairness they were all introduced to F1 thinking that all teams will be subject to huge spending cutbacks, and they were setup with this in mind. The cutbacks didn't happen, so it's no surprise that the back three rows of the grid have been filled with their cars.

That's a very valid point. To an extent they were sold a pup.

[verde]

Originally Posted by steve_r

That puts it succinctly enough. Perfect summary. As much as I would like to have seen them suceed, it's off the the F1 rejects bin with these lot.

Its easy to be harsh on the three new teams, but in fairness they were all introduced to F1 thinking that all teams will be subject to huge spending cutbacks, and they were setup with this in mind. The cutbacks didn't happen, so it's no surprise that the back three rows of the grid have been filled with their cars.

One might blame Max Mosley for it, because he promised to the new entries that Formula One wouldn't cost more than 40 millions a year without being politically able to carry out this pledge. I don't agree with this idea even though Mosley was responsible for skyrocketting the costs of motorsport back in the 90s.

That said, thank you, FOTA, for making Formula One something pretty much unreal and unreachable in an outright messed up economic backdrop.

[djinvicta]

Couple of more Teams go, means extra F1 money for the other Teams..

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by verde

One might blame Max Mosley for it, because he promised to the new entries that Formula One wouldn't cost more than 40 millions a year without being politically able to carry out this pledge. I don't agree with this idea even though Mosley was responsible for skyrocketting the costs of motorsport back in the 90s.

That said, thank you, FOTA, for making Formula One something pretty much unreal and unreachable in an outright messed up economic backdrop.

Uh Oh, Marbot...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Uh Oh, Marbot...

I'm not so sure that it was Max Mosley who was responsible for sky rocketing costs in the 90's. People were complaining about the regulations being too tight, even then. More likely it was the car manufacturers that had the money to spend, rather than anything else. And the only people who didn't agree to the budget cap, were the car manufacturers that wanted to keep spending more money. So there you have it. It was, and still is, the car manufacturers fault that HRT are no more.

[BSchneiderFan]

A question: if HRT doesn't race in 2013 but its assets are sold, is the entry to F1 one of those assets? Does it "own" that, like a piece of property, or does it forfeit it by not appearing next year? Can the FIA award it to someone else?

(OK, not "a" question but several.)

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

A question: if HRT doesn't race in 2013 but its assets are sold, is the entry to F1 one of those assets? Does it "own" that, like a piece of property, or does it forfeit it by not appearing next year? Can the FIA award it to someone else?

(OK, not "a" question but several.)

It was regularly said recently that the entry 'certificate' (for lack of a better word) was HRT's most valuable asset.
However, now they've missed the deadline I'm not quite sure what happens now. I've read that if a buyer is found quickly then they can still enter (subject to approval), so the entry isn't worthless yet.

I'd imagine that as FIA would need to wait until HRT don't show up at a race before revoking the entry and hence being able to award it to someone else. But there is probably a contractual clause in the small print saying that the entry can be revoked at any time of the FIA's choosing.

[chillibowl]

just speculating on a possible answer, but their 2013 entrance fee (if paid) would certainly be an asset and would transfer if they are sold but as the deadline passed a few days ago and the 2013 entrance list was released without their name on it i would guess they never paid to be a part of 2013.

having an extra team means less money for the rest of the teams so im not sure if the FIA can unilaterally open things up to a new team. probably needs consent by the other teams but thats when BE comes in to make a deal.

[Svierge]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

No. HRT have limped through every season and stayed one step ahead (usually) of the 107% rule. No sign of progress, no sign of stability, no sign of order.

That's incorrect. Pace wise in 2012, despite being last in the races, they were far closer to the lap times of the front runners than they've ever been - and it certainly wasn't all down to the blown diffuser ban. If one considers their whole race pace in 2012 it was far, far better than 2011: they were lapped far less this year than last.

This year they operated as a single, proper team, without the Kolles mechanics, and it showed in their standards of prep and general efficiency.

It's a shame. They worked miracles with a fraction of even Caterham's resources and barely 2/3rds of Marussia's budget.

[csirl]

Another step towards the British Formula 1 Championship.

Its hard to believe that there are only 3 non-UK teams left in the sport. While this is great if you are British, its bad for the sport - a global sport will die if it is no longer global.

Part of the reason for the demise of International F1 is that the rules, which are largely written by British people, favour British teams. The Italians, German's and French are good at engines, so they equalise them all. The Italians and French have better weather for testing, so they ban testing. The British are good at all the geeky aero stuff, simulators and finding loopholes in the rules, which is all that matters in modern F1.

[nicanary]

F1 will never die. I admit I'd like to see more involvement from other nations, but all-UK plus Ferrari is perfectly sustainable.

It's happened before, and it'll happen again.

(NB - I should add the caveat that F1 could die, but not the way you're suggesting. More likely that CVC will cut the bonds, and there'll be no cash left.)

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by csirl

Part of the reason for the demise of International F1 is that the rules, which are largely written by British people, favour British teams. The Italians, German's and French are good at engines, so they equalise them all. The Italians and French have better weather for testing, so they ban testing. The British are good at all the geeky aero stuff, simulators and finding loopholes in the rules, which is all that matters in modern F1.

That's pure genius. Please tell me you're not serious?

[Svierge]

Originally Posted by csirl

Part of the reason for the demise of International F1 is that the rules, which are largely written by British people, favour British teams. The Italians, German's and French are good at engines, so they equalise them all. The Italians and French have better weather for testing, so they ban testing. The British are good at all the geeky aero stuff, simulators and finding loopholes in the rules, which is all that matters in modern F1.

You're funny. I think I like you. Where are you from?

I trust you are aware that the German engines are designed and built just up the road from my house in Northamptonshire, England? Ze Germans only write the cheques.

Testing in warmer weather? That's a good one. Even the smallest British teams head off to Spain for testing in the Winter - it's only a 24 hour drive in a truck to Barcelona. We test in Spain more than the Spanish do. As far as F1 goes, the only outfit with a real advantage prior to the test ban was Ferrari, because it had its own dedicated test track, plus it owns Mugello. All F1 teams had their own test teams prior to the test ban.

We were innovating and winning in F1 long before computers and aerodynamics were invented, much to the chagrin of Enzo Fiat.

We are quite good at motor racing, it's true. That's why even the Audi Sport WEC team has mostly British engineering staff. The problem for us is that the only money in UK motorsport these days is in F1 - outside of that there isn't much going on in terms of top level race car design and manufacture, especially now that Lola has expired.

[verde]

Originally Posted by csirl

Another step towards the British Formula 1 Championship.

Its hard to believe that there are only 3 non-UK teams left in the sport. While this is great if you are British, its bad for the sport - a global sport will die if it is no longer global.

Part of the reason for the demise of International F1 is that the rules, which are largely written by British people, favour British teams. The Italians, German's and French are good at engines, so they equalise them all. The Italians and French have better weather for testing, so they ban testing. The British are good at all the geeky aero stuff, simulators and finding loopholes in the rules, which is all that matters in modern F1.

I think there's something to do with drinking tea and listening to Britpop music all life long.

[chillibowl]

cant necessarily agree with what was said in csirl's post but i do understand the sentiment. F1 is concentrated in primarily one area and for a global sport, a world championship, is that level of concentration good for the future?

we have recently seen one F1 team (USF1 or whatever it was called) fail to even get going and now another team based in Spain fail after a few years. Caterham wisely abandoned plans to move to Malaysia. even established teams like Ferrari have in the past felt to the need to establish drafting and design offices in the UK to take advantage of the concentration of F1 people there. Toro Rosso must have inherited Minardi's problems but due to a close relationship with Milton Keynes during their early years they survived. Sauber has always struggled from a lack of funding and staffing and even BMW had difficulties getting Hinwil up to full staff. Toyota with their countless resources failed miserably and how much of that was down to being located in Cologne?

its just the way it is and really have no problems with it but there is an asymmetry here is there not?

[wolfhound]

What about Ferrari based in Italy all these years and seems to be able to recruit staff from elsewhere. I know it is a special case but Toro Rosso and Dallara are Italian based and there must be some sort of motorsport knowledge base in the country.

[bella]

i think it's better for both the teams involved and the people involved if they're grouped in one place.

i mean, we all know how much of a ball ache moving house and getting everything reconnected and signing a lease for minimum 6 months etc is. would you do that for a team like hrt based out in a country on their own? or would you be more comfortable doing it where there's a group of teams based and you at least had a better chance of getting re-employed or moving to a different environment if you needed it?

at least with nearly all teams being based in england there's a common language and a common location. resources and suppliers can be shared easier. as an engineer you aren't limited by a language and as an employer you're less likely to have to be selective with employees for non-job related reasons like language, you can focus more on their skills rather than their shortcomings.