[BTCC] Vauxhall confirms BTCC withdrawal at end of season

[awrb]

Just to quickly flit back to the VXR pulling out, I know it's optimistic but could this pave the way for Chevy to enter officially. They already have the cars built and developed, so it would be cheeper, and RML are proving they can run both championships now, so you wouldn't have a SEAT Sport/Northern South situation. Plus Chevy could do with this kind of publicity in the UK. I know GM are doing badly, but is there a chance?

[VIVA GT]

If I remember correctly, the 2 litre engine size was chosen for the BTCC when the move was made away from Group A regulations. I think that the rationale at the time was to try and involve all of the manufactureres who produced 'normal' saloon cars, the type of thing we could see being driven the length of the UK motorways by 'shiney suited' sales rep's as company cars. 2 litre Mondeo's and Toyota's etc. was thought to be far more representative than Ford Sierra RS500's and BMW M3's as what you'd see on the UK roads at the time.

[redshoes]

That's correct. There's was no great technical reason for the 2-litre saloon requirement, it was chosen simply because almost every major manufacturer had a model that fitted that description. Apart from the move away from the traditional 3-box 4-door saloon that's still true today.

[Speed-King]

If you wanna go really production based, why don't take a page out of the Koni Challenge playbook?

They have tons of different cars, pretty exiting racing and big grids.
The GS-class (M3, Mustang, Porsche 911) was pretty much the blueprint for the SRO's GT4-series, but the ST-class (Civic, Chevy Cobalt, GTI, BMW 330, Minis, Subaru Legacy etc.) would make a great touring car series, I think. Perhaps with some pre-season balancing like in GT3 instead of Grand Am's ad-hoc approach.
Perhaps do away with the Z4s and the MX-5s, but that's just a detail. Maybe there should also be some kind of spec-wing o make the cars a little more exiting, though I like the way Grand Am does it with allowing publicly available after marketparts if they see it necessary to help out a certain car performance wise.

I urge anyone to get their hands on the video-coverage of the Koni Challenge round at Daytona (I think you know how ), that's some pretty awesome stuff.

I am not sure if multi class racing is the way to go these days, but if it is to be, maybe GT4 could be a basis for the big class, though with only the more touring-ish cars from it like the M3 and the Mustang.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

If you wanna go really production based, why don't take a page out of the Koni Challenge playbook?

They have tons of different cars, pretty exiting racing and big grids.
The GS-class (M3, Mustang, Porsche 911) was pretty much the blueprint for the SRO's GT4-series, but the ST-class (Civic, Chevy Cobalt, GTI, BMW 330, Minis, Subaru Legacy etc.) would make a great touring car series, I think.

I am not sure if multi class racing is the way to go these days, but if it is to be, maybe GT4 could be a basis for the big class, though with only the more touring-ish cars from it like the M3 and the Mustang.

Your thoughts aren't at all bad Speed-King; any rules/regs that permit the widest scope of cars possible has to be good in this climate?

A version of GT4 (or even GT3) would be quite good - but for saloons/coupes with 4 seats and keeping bodyshells as basic as possible. Wings/spoilers/arches and all that should be kept for single seaters and sportscar racing imo!

[touringlegend]

I can't help thinking all this discussion of regulation changes is jumping the gun a bit.

Whilst the WTCC is around I can only see the BTCC following their rules. I don't see them taking the chance of going it alone unless there is strong manufacturer demand for a certain set of rules, which there no doubt won't be.

[Tim Wilkinson]

I can't help thinking people are suggesting BritCar / Production S1.....!

As for budgets, people will spend as much as they can, no matter what the regs are. I'm sure some of the budgets in SportMaxx aren't cheap, and that's meant to be very near "production".

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

I can't help thinking all this discussion of regulation changes is jumping the gun a bit.

Whilst the WTCC is around I can only see the BTCC following their rules. I don't see them taking the chance of going it alone unless there is strong manufacturer demand for a certain set of rules, which there no doubt won't be.

Ah yes the WTCC which in itself only has a handful of makes running multiple entries so there's a series that needs a change if ever there was one!!!

But as you say unlikely that'll happen soon?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

I can't help thinking all this discussion of regulation changes is jumping the gun a bit.

Whilst the WTCC is around I can only see the BTCC following their rules. I don't see them taking the chance of going it alone unless there is strong manufacturer demand for a certain set of rules, which there no doubt won't be.

I agree with you, no need to upset the apple cart in the middle of a global recession, but it's fun to speculate. And then nothing lasts foreverand that is also true for touring car rules. Based on the history of the last few decades, I'd give S2000 two or three more years before it is time for a big reorganisation, less if WTCC collapses due to BMW pulling out.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by awrb

Just to quickly flit back to the VXR pulling out, I know it's optimistic but could this pave the way for Chevy to enter officially. They already have the cars built and developed, so it would be cheeper, and RML are proving they can run both championships now, so you wouldn't have a SEAT Sport/Northern South situation. Plus Chevy could do with this kind of publicity in the UK. I know GM are doing badly, but is there a chance?

I don't think there's a chance. We're already lucky to have Chevy still in the Wtcc. I can see RML running the old Lacettis as a private entry, like with Mat Jackson, but TBH I don't think there's a chance that they pull out with a brand and step in with another one.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Ah yes the WTCC which in itself only has a handful of makes running multiple entries so there's a series that needs a change if ever there was one!!!

But as you say unlikely that'll happen soon?

Well, the nature of touring car racing (cheaper than open wheel racing) makes it usual that the manufacturers enter 3 cars or more, that's not the big issue. The problem is we need something to get, say, 15 privateers on the grid instead of 8 (2 of which are almost works, like Porteiro and Coronel). I don't know if I explained my point clearly enough. TBH, if I had a 100,000£ budget and still couldn't step into the Btcc I'd be absolutely upset, if I had the talent. So we need cheaper cars to be the pinnacle of the sport, IMO. No need to have 20 superfast cars on the grid, people and drivers will have more fun with 35 decently powered cars fighting against each other. I'm sure that some Ginetta championships, the Clio or the Leon Supercopa don't cost less than 100,000£ in the UK, so maybe if the bigger series start to follow that path the budgets needed for all the levels of the sport will go down. Hopefully...

[davyboy]

I think GBP100K will is an unrealistic figure to run a season in something like the BTCC even if stock road cars were used !

The current S2000 regs for the BTCC offer the best chance of riding out the recession. Why ? Well stability... i.e. no changes mean that development costs are minimal. Also, parity with other series around the world... means a plentiful supply of cars and parts, as well as the option for drivers/teams to race elsewhere e.g. Macau, WTCC invitations etc...

If/when SEAT/BMW vacate the WTCC, that series is likely to fold and many of the participants and/or their cars will find their way to the cheaper [and arguably better] BTCC. So in a perverse way the WTCC's pain would be the BTCC's gain.

Now having said all of that, if the series does decline because of the costs of running an S2000 car in a recession, then the best solution is for the BTCC to 'open up the regs' and allow a broader range of entries with equalization... in the same way Britcar does.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I'm not sure that privateers will be more incline to step in than before, as we have already seen in Brands Hatch that BMW privateers can do very well compared to the Vauxhalls.

The BMWs are that competitive because in BTCC they get a 20kg rebate if fitting a sequential gearbox. To some extent I think that unfortunately will kill off most privateer efforts wanting to put a FWD car on the track. Why bother developing your own car when you can just buy one of the shelf and get an additional -20kg of weight removed?!?

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I too think that a return to more 'Production Saloon' type regulations would reduce the costs of producing the cars in the first place (costs that realistically only manufacturers can afford), and could lead to a wide variety of cars entered into the championship.

If you look at eg STCC you will find the grid littered with locally developed cars with only partial to no manufacturer support at all. So the conclusion that it's not realistic is not correct. Cost of cars is of course always a problem that needs to be controlled.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by davyboy

the best solution is for the BTCC to 'open up the regs' and allow a broader range of entries with equalization... in the same way Britcar does.

I'm not sure the free-for-all Britcar approach would work. It's like any multi-class club series, there may be a few drivers who want to win at any cost and a few gripes about class structure/equalization but for the most part drivers are just happy to have someone to race against. I don't think you could say the same for the BTCC.

As I've said before I don't see how Vauxhall leaving equates to needing another new set of technical regs.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by stedevil

If you look at eg STCC you will find the grid littered with locally developed cars with only partial to no manufacturer support at all. So the conclusion that it's not realistic is not correct. Cost of cars is of course always a problem that needs to be controlled.

Nothing wrong with that as you say but I think you've misread VIVA'S comment about cost reduction?

I recall in the great days of Group A prior to Formula RS500/M3, various national series had locally developed cars, (often in different classes!!) alongside importer/works backed entries. It all added interest, variety and spice to proceedings.

It was still possible for a true privateer to turn up with a fairly competitive race ready car, second hand, in a smaller class (or big class) and have a bit of fun in a premier series. I don't think there's quite as much choice or opportunity to do that with the current regs is there?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I don't think a simple matter of stripping off the spoilers would work, as that would make the road car's aero a little too important. I would suggest that flat floors could be brought in and possibly a lower minimum ride height, as that would be a cheap way of improving lap times and spectacle - as part of a new set of rules.

Sounds like sensible as well as cheap suggestions to me. As an added benefit, it will be less useful to produce special models like eg the si and it's near flat floor.

Originally Posted by chunterer

2/3/4/5 door doesn't matter, as long as it's got seats in front and (decent sized) ones in the rear so in that way we avoid 'con' tricks like Porsche 911's and RX7's in the old days!!

I agree. It's the internal "should fit 4-5 persons comfortably" that should matter, not the amount of openable doors.

However surely everyone would like to see bigger engined/bigger cars as well as medium/small cars again?

Well, it depends on what you mean with a bigger engine. Physical size in my mind should go down even further, but I dont see a problem with HP rising at the same time, primarily by allowing FI engines. As for cars, the last 30 years they keep getting larger and larger and larger, adding a few cm and and a few dussen kg with each new model. So a European "small" car today is about as big as a European "large" car 30 years ago.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I'm not sure the free-for-all Britcar approach would work. It's like any multi-class club series, there may be a few drivers who want to win at any cost and a few gripes about class structure/equalization but for the most part drivers are just happy to have someone to race against. I don't think you could say the same for the BTCC.

As I've said before I don't see how Vauxhall leaving equates to needing another new set of technical regs.

You're right, as it stands the BTCC does not need new regs... that's pretty much what I've been saying all along. However if things do deteriorate from a financial perspective, and we're left with 6 or 7 cars on the grid... then the solution has got to be opening up the regs to attract existing cars from other series, as opposed to coming up with brand new rules that require newly developed cars. I honestly don't see things getting that bad though. As I said above, the more likely casualty will be the WTCC because of its over reliance on works teams and its significantly higher budgets. And if it does go, the BTCC will be one of the many series to benefit.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Nothing wrong with that as you say but I think you've misread VIVA'S comment about cost reduction?

I recall in the great days of Group A prior to Formula RS500/M3, various national series had locally developed cars, (often in different classes!!) alongside importer/works backed entries. It all added interest, variety and spice to proceedings.

It was still possible for a true privateer to turn up with a fairly competitive race ready car, second hand, in a smaller class (or big class) and have a bit of fun in a premier series. I don't think there's quite as much choice or opportunity to do that with the current regs is there?

I guess it really comes down to a principal discussion of, should cheaper lower class cars be part of the main feature race or part of the support package? The German TCC and ETC Cup still does this while eg WTCC/BTCC/STCC/DTC only have "Manufacturer" and "Indy" class. STCC additionally has a junior series as supportclass with S1600 similar cars with 30+ grids and 10 different brands. I'm not sure STCC would improve if these S1600 cars where to race at the same time at the S2000.

[helterskelter]

Yeah, let's take Jtcc as an example. I think we all find that series pretty sucessful in terms of grid. The budget needed is between 40K and 60K, I can tell you for sure. What do we have? 30+ grid, 10 brands competing and a lot of fun for the drivers and the crowds. Now, why not take the Jtcc rules (smaller engine, nearer to production cars than the s2000) and use them for the top championship? I think the big crowds and the drivers want action, no matter which car. Also, if I want a supercar, I compete in the national Porsche Cup, very expensive but great car, reaching +300 km/h in Monza, as I've seen in the past. So, davyboy, great championships can be ran even with less than 100K, and IMO Btcc and Wtcc are lacking humilty in that sense, as if a smaller-engined cars were not as fun as a 2.0. As I said before, we should all go back to the essence of Touring Car Racing, which is fun, fun, fun, no matter in which car. I can assure you that a 90hp Citroen C1 can be absolutely fun. Maybe that's too underpowered, but a 1.6 car would be great and cheaper.
Stedevil I know that BMWs are 20kgs lighter in the Btcc, but if you look at Mat Jackson and Colin Turkington last year they were competitive as well, and Mat drove for his own team, so we can't say it's about having a well experienced team behind you. Privateers can find themselves at the same level of competitiveness as the works drivers, as Porteiro has shown in the Wtcc and as the BMWs did in Btcc last year, even without having less weight compared to the Wtcc rules.

[Speed-King]

I don't think the actual size of the base car is the big issue, but the way you built it. Sure, a roadgoing BMW 320 or 330 costs more than a Citroen C1, but even if you start with a brand new fully equiped roadcar and the price difference is about 20k € you will recoup a lot of it by re-selling parts you don't need for your car and the rest of the costs is spread over several years in which you - or someone you sell the car to later on - can campaign it.

New S2000 cars usually cost around 200k €, the price of the roadcar is only 10-15% of that, and that is if you don't start with a body in white, as I think most constructors do.

So as long as you built a C1 to full S2000 rules (smaller engine notwithstanding), you will probably still spend 170k...

Whereas a Koni Challenge (= Showroom Stock) Honda Civic - such as this one - usually goes for well bellow 100k $ and can be raced competitively for 5 or more years, if memory serves me right.


If you have to, add a spec wing for max. 5k and you have a perfectly good touring car.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Now, why not take the Jtcc rules (smaller engine, nearer to production cars than the s2000) and use them for the top championship?.

Basically because you cannot have superminis as a serious major championship all on their own. They just aren't a big enough draw when you can have much bigger cars that look and sound far more impressive. It is reasonably to suggest having small cars in a class within a series though.

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Also, if I want a supercar, I compete in the national Porsche Cup, very expensive but great car, reaching +300 km/h in Monza, as I've seen in the past.

I don't think anyone wants to see Supercars in a Touring Car series?!

Originally Posted by helterskelter

So, davyboy, great championships can be ran even with less than 100K, and IMO Btcc and Wtcc are lacking humilty in that sense, as if a smaller-engined cars were not as fun as a 2.0.

Quick small cars are indeed fun to drive (I know from experience) but I suspect that for an entrant, it would be easier to sell sponsorship space on a big saloon or coupe over a 1.0 Aygo or something similar and much easier to sell bigger cars to the public for a race meeting!!

Again we're going down a preference route but small cars really aren't suitable for a big series as a single class series. They are suitable for smaller classes within a big series or as one-make racing.

[helterskelter]

I fully respect your opinion and the sponsorship thing is a good point. However, I don't think that the great crowds that go to race meetings care about which engine do the cars have. The cars just have to look sporty and fun.
Also, we accept the 2.0 engines as the top of this sport, but then some people will think that 3.0 engines have to be there if the cars are to be good enough to be considered the pinnacle of the sport. So I believe that whichever engine you choose, some people will always be unhappy. As you said, it's mostly about preferences

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't think the actual size of the base car is the big issue, but the way you built it. Sure, a roadgoing BMW 320 or 330 costs more than a Citroen C1, but even if you start with a brand new fully equiped roadcar and the price difference is about 20k € you will recoup a lot of it by re-selling parts you don't need for your car and the rest of the costs is spread over several years in which you - or someone you sell the car to later on - can campaign it.

New S2000 cars usually cost around 200k €, the price of the roadcar is only 10-15% of that, and that is if you don't start with a body in white, as I think most constructors do.

So as long as you built a C1 to full S2000 rules (smaller engine notwithstanding), you will probably still spend 170k...

Whereas a Koni Challenge (= Showroom Stock) Honda Civic - such as this one - usually goes for well bellow 100k $ and can be raced competitively for 5 or more years, if memory serves me right.

If you have to, add a spec wing for max. 5k and you have a perfectly good touring car.

I absolutely agree with you, except that I never meant to say that C1s should compete in the Wtcc! Your analisys is absolutely spot on IMO, I just meant that powerful cars are good and enjoyable to watch, but seeing a race with more than 30 drivers and 10 brands fighting would be even better. I believe that if you give a series some credit as a World Championship, give it media coverage like Wtcc and make it fun for the crowds, crowds, teams and drivers will enjoy it.

[kristof14]

Going back to the idea of seeing Chevrolet come in to replace Vauxhall, this seems a viable option, the cars are already being developed within the WTCC budget, all they need is the cost of running the cars, surely a massive saving over the amount of funding that went to Vauxhall whilst still maintaining a presence?

[mountainstar]

I think people spend too much time worried about the manufacturers. I think the key focus should be putting cars out there people actually want to turn up and watch at the circuit and that race drivers want to race. Then you'll get the manufacturers and get the manufacturers to conform to your rules not theirs.

When you let the manufacturers have their head they boom/bust series and as of right now it's a fringe series only the hardcore fans watch.

I don't want to watch S2000. I've tried. I've watched STCC, WTCC and BTCC races and I can't get into it. I'm not spending my money to fly over to Europe either to attend a race meeting. I'd rather go to New Zealand and watch the NZV8's.