[Driver] Maldonado: Can he be changed, can he maximise his talent, or is he a lost cause?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

i think it's more he did exactly what he was told. he's known for that - for example ask him to do a specific laptime and he will. he's very compliant and fortunately his talent extends far enough to be able to do the really quick stuff when he needs to.

don't mistake that for intelligence on the scale of button or someone who really knows their stuff.

Nah that's being disingenuous now. He won fair and square... and not because he was was told to do it. It's not an excuse for his accidents, but 'divs' don't win races the way he did.

[bella]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Nah that's being disingenuous now. He won fair and square... and not because he was was told to do it. It's not an excuse for his accidents, but 'divs' don't win races the way he did.

not really. it's all completely true. not trying to take any credit away from his win, it was excellent, but you have to understand the context of it. it was the fastest car, in the hands of a very quick driver and through the driver doing what he was told - we hear it all race, particularly in the massa/smedley context, do this, you need to be another 1s quicker, and so on - and not binning it, he won the race.

there was no genius tyre call, or wizardry of pulling speed from an incapable car. there's plenty of drivers not capable of delivering what they need to on the day, at the time, on the tyres. he's able to do that, and that's why he excels as a grand prix driver. he does what's expected of him without fuss.

but it's absolutely not intelligence, of the type where genius tyre calls or alonso-like wizardry come into play. or the type where a driver knows that the long term gain of letting a car faster in the short term pass him. that's not his game. his is in delivering serious pace. he needs to learn to ease off it. but can he? that's what we're discussing here.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

not really. it's all completely true. not trying to take any credit away from his win, it was excellent, but you have to understand the context of it. it was the fastest car, in the hands of a very quick driver and through the driver doing what he was told - we hear it all race, particularly in the massa/smedley context, do this, you need to be another 1s quicker, and so on - and not binning it, he won the race.

You can't talk a person into winning a race. By the same token you're going to tell us that his RE talked him into the accidents, or possibly gave him the wrong or no instructions, which is what led to the accidents. That's preposterous. He had the same type of assistance from his RE as anyone else on that grid... no more, no less.

Originally Posted by bella

but it's absolutely not intelligence, of the type where genius tyre calls or alonso-like wizardry come into play. or the type where a driver knows that the long term gain of letting a car faster in the short term pass him. that's not his game. his is in delivering serious pace. he needs to learn to ease off it. but can he? that's what we're discussing here.

He did ease off... he let Alonso hare away, who in turn lifed his tyres more quickly, and PM was where it mattered at the chequered flag. He did exactly what was needed to win that GP and won it consummately.

My point is that he has demonstrated he can do it. The question is whether he can do it consistently enough to put him in the category of a title contender. At this stage I would say no, but then there are but a handful of drivers who would be able to do such a thing.

[littleman]

Vittorio Brambilla, known as the Monza Gorilla or Rock Ape, won the 1975 Austrian Grand Prix.He never won another one.

The way he drove makes Maldonado look positively tame in comparison.

My point is that both were fast, were not the sharpest tool in the box but nonetheless had their ONE day in the sun.I think Maldonado has now had his.

Brambilla never drove for a factory team in F1, his reputation made sure of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorio_Brambilla

[Peter Mallett]

Yup and he won by crossing the line backwards. He was a character though.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don't think it is and no it isn't.

Although your accusations of this Venezuela bashing and how Britain is as corrupt is more suited to Parc Ferme, or your imagination.

Fair enough, I've just noticed that whenever Maldonado gets discussed his source of income usually gets brought up and its usually a negative point. I don't think it is Venezuela bashing, more Chavez bashing.

My post was not a side-track of the thread, I just found it amuzing that the speculative invoice showed that Williams banked with Barclays.

People in Glass Houses shouldn't throw rocks and all that.
Back to the thread.

[pauln]

Who someone banks with is a completely different matter from where they get their money from

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by littleman

Vittorio Brambilla, known as the Monza Gorilla or Rock Ape, won the 1975 Austrian Grand Prix.He never won another one.

The way he drove makes Maldonado look positively tame in comparison.

My point is that both were fast, were not the sharpest tool in the box but nonetheless had their ONE day in the sun.I think Maldonado has now had his.

Brambilla never drove for a factory team in F1, his reputation made sure of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorio_Brambilla

Not taking anything away from the late Monza Gorilla, but some would argue that the 1975 Austrian Grand Prix was a race he lucked in to. There have been a number like that down through the years, Monaco 1982 comes to mind, where, as in Austria that day, the weather played a significant part.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by pauln

Who someone banks with is a completely different matter from where they get their money from

As I saiid, I just found it amuzing, especially given Barclay's past and present actions of being a pretty corrupt bank!

It was a post made for a little ironic laugh, not for serious discussion as was the post I quoted with the invoice, I imagine.

[Paradise City]

Maldonado has clearly got wins within him and his win to date was top drawer. The man is also psychological hard-man, he was philosophical for his first win, totally non-plussed for all this flak he's getting. There is something of 'Senna' within him that is lacking in uh..Senna.

It just depends whether those wins within him compensate for the bills.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

There is something of 'Senna' within him that is lacking in uh..Senna.

Wow. He certainly is getting all the attention he seeks.

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Maldonado has clearly got wins within him and his win to date was top drawer. The man is also psychological hard-man, he was philosophical for his first win, totally non-plussed for all this flak he's getting. There is something of 'Senna' within him that is lacking in uh..Senna.

It just depends whether those wins within him compensate for the bills.

Definitely a strong mind, just look at Australia this year for a proof of that.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Maldonado has clearly got wins within him and his win to date was top drawer. The man is also psychological hard-man, he was philosophical for his first win, totally non-plussed for all this flak he's getting. There is something of 'Senna' within him that is lacking in uh..Senna.

I think you're right. He's deficient in many areas, but there's a lot more to him than some people are giving him credit for. Maybe he's right... maybe he doesn't need to change. If he develops a reputation as a hard man, people will jump out of his way, and who knows maybe there's a possibility that his unorthodox approach to this will yield more wins ?

[pauln]

Originally Posted by beau1

It was a post made for a little ironic laugh, not for serious discussion as was the post I quoted with the invoice, I imagine.

It came across as an accusation of complicity with a corrupt organisation, which doesn't help any valid arguments you may have.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think you're right. He's deficient in many areas, but there's a lot more to him than some people are giving him credit for. Maybe he's right... maybe he doesn't need to change. If he develops a reputation as a hard man, people will jump out of his way, and who knows maybe there's a possibility that his unorthodox approach to this will yield more wins ?

Yes but it will need the other driver to be 'intimidated'

Or sensible.....

When it really comes down to it, how many drivers in F1 at the moment can we honestly say hand on heart would not bang wheels if it meant defending a podium position (rightly or wrongly)

I can only see Alonso, Webber or Button fitting that really?

[JohnSSC]

These are the points I was making: like many drivers, Maldonado has the components to be fast and be a winner. What separates those in the top tier from the talented is thier ability to put it all together over a race weekend.

Jean Alesi comes to mind as a driver who had the speed, was not terribly erratic or anything yet could not quite put it all together at one time.

[Marbot]

Williams support Maldonado.

Mark Gillan:

“We looked at it; in our opinion Perez squeezed Pastor,” Gillan told ESPNF1.com. “Pastor had the inside line, he braked, he locked the wheels and effectively grabbed the car. You can see a heavy twitch where he's fighting the car and the back end pushed right and hit Perez, so to me it is a racing incident.

“Pastor is a real fighter. He's quick, he's a robust person on track and we've had a few incidents in the last number of races.

“I think this was unfortunate but to me it's a racing incident. I can't see anything in it,” he continued.

“Of course [we speak to him and discuss things like this]. We say that 'you've got to bring it home' to both the drivers, but with this one when he braked he was on the line and the car unfortunately just lost grip and he just couldn't control it. He definitely didn't want to hit Perez, that's for sure.

“He is very mentally robust and certainly that's a major strength of his. He's not fazed by it and he just wants to drive the car as quickly as he can - and he usually does. So I don't have any worries about that at all.”

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/181836/...maldonado.html

[TrapezeArtist]

Sorry, the thread is too long to read every one, but dipping in and out, the general sentiment is pretty clear. I have to agree: Maldonado is an animal.

His various ill-judged accidents are one thing, and you can fairly compare them with Vittorio Brambilla, Andrea de Crasharis and one or two others. His assaults (carefully chosen word) on Hamilton (Spa) and Perez (Monaco) are something else entirely. It does the F1 stewards no credit at all that he got away with both of those. Compare them with Eddie Irvine's three race ban in Interlagos for, basically, getting involved in someone else's accident.

Sadly Williams have got themselves into a situation of having two drivers, neither of whom could have been chosen according to the normal criteria. One is a charming and personable guy with a solid gold name and little talent. The other is an oaf with huge sponsorship from a rather dodgy source. I just hope that the quality of their car this year will give them the resources and credibility to make some more rational driver decisions next year.

[littleman]

Excellent post - a perfect summary of the realities.

At least Maldonado's money is keeping Williams viable until better days return - and securing jobs for a few hundred people.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by littleman

Excellent post - a perfect summary of the realities.

At least Maldonado's money is keeping Williams viable until better days return - and securing jobs for a few hundred people.

It's funny how an opinion on something can alter one's perception of 'realities'. That post was an opinionated rant and riddled with factual inaccuracies.

[Armco Bender]

The other is an oaf with huge sponsorship from a rather dodgy source. I just hope that the quality of their car this year will give them the resources and credibility to make some more rational driver decisions next year.

The oaf won a GP....now shoot the other foot.

[Aysedasi]

No foot-shooting involved - winning one GP doesn't make you the best thing since sliced bread..... And he isn't.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

No foot-shooting involved - winning one GP doesn't make you the best thing since sliced bread..... And he isn't.

Of course he isn't... but he isn't the div some make him out to be either. In terms of this thread and this poll, I think it's too early to make a pronouncement about PM.

[bella]

if you only watch f1, yes it is. if you've watched his progress through motorsport it's old news and very funny as f1 fans realise what you've seen and known all along.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

if you only watch f1, yes it is. if you've watched his progress through motorsport it's old news and very funny as f1 fans realise what you've seen and known all along.

Yes he's been around a while in cars - and has had his fair share of controversy - but Formula One has always been very different. In the same vein, Senna caused plenty of trouble en route to F1 and while he was there too, yet he also managed to become one of the greatest the sport's seen. Maldonado has been in F1 for just over a year... if he manages more podiums and/or wins, people will place less emphasis on his indiscretions and failings. That's why I feel it's too early to compartmentalize him as great or crap.