Alonso penalised! (merged)

[freud]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

The penalty should, surely, have no relevance to the position of the championship. That is my point and, I suspect and hope, yours too.

Well considering the stage of the season, the penalty does have tremendous relevance to the position of the championship. Had Alonso started from 5th on the grid he was potentially on course for a poidum (third) place finish.. a difference of 4 points had MS won the race. With him starting on 10th, the chances of the podium are slim. MS gains more points, so better for him come the last race.

Anyway, I think we should not focus on whether FIA is trying to fix the season in favor of MS and Ferrari but rather the actual incident. We can see by the postings in this thread that many F1 fans are simply annoyed by this decision. Perhaps if the stewards really believe they made the right decision they should come out clean and explain the reasons why (alongwith evidence) they made this decision.

As I mentioned earlier, the law of probability has failed so many times when it comes to F! rulings that many are simply disechanted with the FIA. The sport is good, the people running it stink.

Inigo.. lets not get too serious. It all good fun

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by gti5notrkt

Soccer (football) match rigging?

Apologies for the OT comment....couldn't resist...

No problem, considering the US's fate in Germany

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by freud

Inigo.. lets not get too serious. It all good fun

Fair enough.. I will step back

[Knowlesy]

I don't subscribe to this race fixing accusation that gets bandied about so easily although I understand why it crosses the mind.

From my point of view, though, this decision is one of the weirdest I have ever known.

Firstly, Alonso had no time to back off. It was his out lap, which was under a strict time limit to say the least and then he had a flying lap which was a significant improvement on his previous attempt.

So where the backing off and disruption to Massa's lap is I am not sure.

This decision is a big mistake in my opinion and I hope it does not decide the championship.

[Inigo Montoya]

Who signs off on these things? Tony Scott?

[deejay]

When I watched it live I thought Massa had lost his chance of poll because of Alonso. Cars are affected on the high speed corners when following another car. This is a well known thing (this is why it's often so hard to pass). Massa would have lost a few tenths optimum speed in Parabolica being that close to the car in front. Renault even admit it:

"I looked at Ferrari's telemetry, and [Massa] gained time on the back straight and was quicker into Parabolica than before. He lifted in the middle of the corner. To me, it looked like a mistake but he claimed he was losing downforce."

It's not deliberate "blocking", it's just interrupting the hot-lap of Massa. When are we dealing with 1000ths between drivers times it doesn't take much. The ruling is consistent with what's been happening all year. Unfortunate that it happened to who it did when it did but there wasn't much the FIA could do about it - there's precedent. If they ignored the complaint it would have been bias.

The teams know about these rulings, and it would have been avoided if Renault hadn't put Alonso out right in Massa's path. If he'd gone out 5 seconds earlier he wouldn’t have had a problem. It was just unfortunate that he couldn't afford to yield on his out-lap because of the time left to start a new lap - but that's mismanagement by Renault and not an excuse.

The melodrama in this thread is absurd.

[freud]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Fair enough.. I will step back

ah, the good ol' days

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by freud

Well considering the stage of the season, ...

Obviously I see the effect it could have.

Anyway, I think we should not focus on whether FIA is trying to fix the season in favor of MS and Ferrari but rather the actual incident.

*spits drink over the screen* 'twas my point.

Perhaps if the stewards really believe they made the right decision they should come out clean and explain the reasons why (alongwith evidence) they made this decision.

Agreed, but what is the point. They'll still get accused of whatever.

As I mentioned earlier, the law of probability has failed so many times when it comes to F! rulings that many are simply disechanted with the FIA. The sport is good, the people running it stink.

I make it that Michael has been punished twice this year with grid penalties and Alonso twice also.

As I said people will still think the same whatever.

[deejay]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Firstly, Alonso had no time to back off. It was his out lap, which was under a strict time limit to say the least and then he had a flying lap which was a significant improvement on his previous attempt.

Sure, that's the reason why he didn't back off, and understandable, but it doesn't excuse him for a penalty that has been getting handed out all year.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by deejay

The melodrama in this thread is absurd.

Now that was my point.

[freud]

Originally Posted by deejay

Sure, that's the reason ...a penalty that has been getting handed out all year.

handed out all year??????????

Mr. Adam, its not about the number of punishments Its this decision..

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by freud

Mr. Adam, its not about the number of punishments Its this decision..

Unless you consider a number of events you can't talk probabilities then.

It's Dr. BTW.

[deejay]

Originally Posted by freud

handed out all year??????????

Mr. Adam, its not about the number of punishments Its this decision..

But the rulings that have been happening all year have everything to do with the ruling here. Consistency is everything in these kinds of rulings.

[freud]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Unless you consider a number of events you can't talk probabilities then.

It's Dr. BTW.

We need to get together for a beer one of these days

I will wait for the *thoroughly detailed* monza steward report with the throttle tracings of Fernie and Massinha (i.e. if there is ever one that comes out). Even if it does, I am dubious if it will be in English

[M Coupe]

Originally Posted by deejay

When I watched it live I thought Massa had lost his chance of poll because of Alonso. Cars are affected on the high speed corners when following another car. This is a well known thing (this is why it's often so hard to pass). Massa would have lost a few tenths optimum speed in Parabolica being that close to the car in front. Renault even admit it:

Not sure how you are reading this but Renault don't admit anything. Symonds comment was that Massa got a tow on the back straight and looked like he made a mistake in Parabolica.
Perhaps because he got the tow he was quicker on the entry to Parabolica than expected and he had to lift slightly. I don't think Massa was close enough for Alonso to have affected him.

Originally Posted by deejay

The teams know about these rulings, and it would have been avoided if Renault hadn't put Alonso out right in Massa's path. If he'd gone out 5 seconds earlier he wouldn’t have had a problem. It was just unfortunate that he couldn't afford to yield on his out-lap because of the time left to start a new lap - but that's mismanagement by Renault and not an excuse.

I don't think Renault had any choice on when they sent Alonso out, if they could have I'm sure they would have sent him out at least 30secs earlier, having a driver going flat out on his out lap doesn't do the tyres any favours. If there was any mis-management by Renault it wasn't at this point, it was earlier when they put the 1st set of new tyres on for Alonso to go for a decent time, thereby not allowing themselves enough time to get Alonso back in and then out again for a last attempt before the session ended. But there are so many factors involved in that as to be very difficult to pinpoint down to the last few seconds.[/QUOTE]

[strider]

As feelings are running high, it might be an idea to look at a different take on the decision. Joe Saward is always pretty good on grandprix,com. See here.

Personally, I thought the Stewards should have looked at Renault's telemetry, but presumably Pat Symonds would have produced that if it helped.

The simple question is: Did Massa lift off in the Parabolica because he lost downforce due to Alonso or was it due to a mistake? As the article states it must have been a marginal decision.

[deejay]

Originally Posted by M Coupe

Not sure how you are reading this but Renault don't admit anything. Symonds comment was that Massa got a tow on the back straight and looked like he made a mistake in Parabolica.

Well naturally Symonds put the Renault spin on it, the important thing is Massa had to lift, and Symonds even acknowledged that it may have been a loss of downforce. "Looked like a mistake" is really only cheekiness on his part.

Perhaps because he got the tow he was quicker on the entry to Parabolica than expected and he had to lift slightly. I don't think Massa was close enough for Alonso to have affected him.

That's contradictory. Close enough to give a tow but not close enough to affect him? I think whether he got a tow is beside the point. The point is that Alonso's car was in a position that prevented Massa from getting clean lap - however minutely.

I don't think Renault had any choice on when they sent Alonso out

Yeah, but that's there own fault. Not Massa's. Not the stewards.

[deejay]

Originally Posted by strider

As feelings are running high, it might be an idea to look at a different take on the decision. Joe Saward is always pretty good on grandprix,com. See here.

Good article.

Personally, I thought the Stewards should have looked at Renault's telemetry, but presumably Pat Symonds would have produced that if it helped.

Why? I don't think it has being suggested that Alonso backed off at all, simply that Massa caught him and it slowed Massa down. Alonso had been lapping slower than Massa anyway, and was only on his warm up lap. I think it's safe to assume Massa's optimum "clean" speed was greater than Alonso's at that point and on catching Alonso (even if for one corner) he would be slowed.

I'm really surprised this is even being debated as it seems like it should be obvious to anyone who has followed F1 for the last 5+ years.

The simple question is: Did Massa lift off in the Parabolica because he lost downforce due to Alonso or was it due to a mistake? As the article states it must have been a marginal decision.

Yes, it does come down to benefit of the doubt and Alonso didn't get it.

[Knowlesy]

I think the FIA have gone too far with this blocking rule as a whole. It opens the door to inconsistencies like this.

Let the drivers sort it out like they did pre-2003. OK, if there is a blatant block fair enough. That has to be penalised. But to be penalised simply for being there and taking a little air off the car behind....well, it's a bit of a daft rule!

A little more common sense is needed I feel.

[slicktoast]

What a decision! I hope it comes to naught with BOTH Alonso & Michael sitting safely in the kitty litter (due to unforced driver errors) during the first half of the race. And Kimi, Jenson and Nick on the podium. Then we can see what penalty the "FIA" can conjur up for the next race.

[freud]

Originally Posted by deejay

Well naturally Symonds put the Renault spin on it, the important thing is Massa had to lift, and Symonds even acknowledged that it may have been a loss of downforce. "Looked like a mistake" is really only cheekiness on his part.

*sniff*

May be Massa entered the corner a bit too fast. At a corner like parabolica where you naturally lift off (you dont want to end up in the tyre wall at 300 KPH), its impossible for a steward to decide that a driver lifted because of a car 8 car-lengths ahead.

As I read on the link strider proveds:

"The stewards ruled on this occasion that Alonso's action "may not have been deliberate" and it was obviously a very marginal call."

I guess no thing as 'benefit of doubt' exist in the italian stwards' dictionary? Or if there is such a thing as 'benefit of doubt', who should get it?

[deejay]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

I think the FIA have gone too far with this blocking rule as a whole. It opens the door to inconsistencies like this.

Let the drivers sort it out like they did pre-2003. OK, if there is a blatant block fair enough. That has to be penalised. But to be penalised simply for being there and taking a little air off the car behind....well, it's a bit of a daft rule!

A little more common sense is needed I feel.

It's because Alonso was only on his outlap though. Not entirely different than blue flags for lapped cars. If he'd been setting a time himself ("racing for position") there would have been no issue. It's just a freak occurance that Alonso found himself on a outlap where he felt like he couldn't lift and let anyone through.

Although I wonder how much time he would have lost if he had let Massa through on one of the straights. Not 2 seconds I wouldn't think - and he'd be 5th on the grid right now.

[Knowlesy]

No, I'm sorry. It was so close that it was tough to judge. Better to speed to the line and get a flying lap in than let Massa past and, possibly, lose a flying lap. If he'd lost that he would have been what, 8th?

I know what anybody else would have done in that situation.

I will put my house on this. I'll bet, confidently, that we get some more situations like this in the final few races and nothing will be done. It is a daft ruling that will lead to problems with consistency time and time again unless someone steps in with some common sense.

This has even made Pat Symonds angry, something I thought impossible!

[deejay]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

No, I'm sorry. It was so close that it was tough to judge. Better to speed to the line and get a flying lap in than let Massa past and, possibly, lose a flying lap. If he'd lost that he would have been what, 8th?

Are you saying that Massa isn't entitiled to a clean lap? That's it's okay for Massa to have his flying lap interrupted as long as it means Alonso gets a chance to do his?

I just don't follow that line of thinking.

[Knowlesy]

Massa is entitled to a clean lap. But sometimes circumstance mitigates against that.

It is unavoidable sometimes I'm afraid.

Alonso would have had to back off something rotten to let Massa by and would certainly have lost the two seconds, possibly more IMO.

It is unfortunate and happens to all competitiors from time to time.