Phoenix Off

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Really? Am I? feel free to point out a quote where I say that.

Technically you didn't say that but you always make it it's a deadly sin to mention the three letter and two letter word on this forum when really you just want to dodge the bullet. Other series maybe mentioned in comparisons and description ie the aowr situation.

Overlooked in what I posted, apparently, was the comment that we stick to the discussion of the cancellation. Since this is a CC thread, I reckon that some folks are going to have positive as well as negative comments regarding CC. Some of those comments will be OTT, but fair enough.

Which we tried to in the first page but silly comments took it off topic.

What I was objecting to was the listing of the perceived sins of the IRL/TG/NASCAR (did I miss anyone?) in this mess. Sometimes the blame for something can be affixed squarely on CC's shoulders without making CC out to be some sort of helpless victim. One minute these guys are the greatest businessmen since Ken Lay, Dennis kozlowski and Bernard Ebbers, the next they are hapless victims of the evil machinations of others.

This is a Series in really deep stuff. Much of it as the result of it's on actions.

Alot of us blame CC for negatives we're not saying they are perfect, we're just happy to see Champ Car which many object to.

[climb]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Champcar has to be a success before it crosses the pond for me. It has to establish fixed venues in the US year on year and build from there.

Can't build an empire with no foundations.

Absolutely true.

BTW Let's imagine two alternative scenarios in the tv ads to introduce CC coming to Europe

- "Ehy you European autosport fanatics!Come over and watch the CC series!They are successful in the States andcertainly will be here!

or

- "Ehy you European autosport fanatics!Come over and watch the CC series!They are almost bankrupt in the States and need some support here in order to survive!"

Would it be result in the same appeal to fans? Don't think so

As long as CC struggle in their homeland, it's not Europe that can grant them a turnaround.

[mountainstar]

Well possibly champcar can serve markets that F1 has abandoned to go race in timbuktu. Seems Zolder and Assen have done well for 1st year events.

Someone made a point elsewhere that champcar should focus on more airport and permanent race tracks that street races. The idea being the effort and expense required in dealing with locals, government, getting funding, infrastucture, etc. for street races is too much of a pain. Phoenix they had to deal with nascar and phoenix raceway stirring the pot, the sheriff, the local government, a sponsor defaulting, etc. If they had went to Miller Park in Utah, most of that would be non issues. I'm tending to agree with that point now.

In the future, I think if champcar is looking to metro markets, then airport races are the way to go. Less hassle then cramming some street circuit into downtown and all the problems that go with that.

[Tim Northcutt]

If Assen draws the 70,000 that are anticipated on race day, and the action is good on the track, then I would agree that a visit to Holland was a good decision. Holland has a great motorsports tradition and very knowledgeable fans who go out and support the sport.

The early estimates for Zolder's race day crowd was 30,000and the promoter later stated it was 25,000, with 10,000-15,000 on the other two days total, for 40,000 for the weekend....that is not so impressive as to justify the costs to travel overseas, etc.

This trip across the pond may end up being a mixed bag instead of a great success for both, but I'll reserve judgment on that until the Euro-Swing is over.

[norman-normal]

IRL would not have lasted past its first year with out the Indy 500.

Talk about having all your eggs in one basket!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

IRL would not have lasted past its first year with out the Indy 500.

Talk about having all your eggs in one basket!

That may be so, but still better than having no basket.

[Dutton]

Also totally irrelevant (I'm not necessarily sure it is true, either).

[indycool]

In this case, norman, the chicken comes before the egg. If there was previously no Indianapolis 500, there would have been no IRL.

[2112]

or CART, or USAC, or AAA. Not sure about AAA though, they take my money every year and promise to save me when I break down, that`s a business in itself.

[JohnSSC]

Without the AAA, there would have been no 500 as they were the original sanctioning body for that race as well as many others! So you see 2112, the AAA is everywhere!

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

The early estimates for Zolder's race day crowd was 30,000and the promoter later stated it was 25,000, with 10,000-15,000 on the other two days total, for 40,000 for the weekend....that is not so impressive as to justify the costs to travel overseas, etc.

If the promoter thinks it is though. From all accounts it seems the promoter was happy with the 1st event, he did mention that he will look at dropping Grandstand tickets in 2008 to try and boost sales there

[climb]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

IRL would not have lasted past its first year with out the Indy 500.
..

But they have.

And they also have a series that for the empteenth year en route has a very close finish, with the title clinched at the very last race, whreas on the opposite side, a series whose winner is beknown since half season... and always the same one.

[climb]

Originally Posted by indycool

In this case, norman, the chicken comes before the egg. If there was previously no Indianapolis 500, there would have been no IRL.

Weell spotted indycool : only a fool could hope to run a successful OW series without Indy

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by climb

And they also have a series that for the empteenth year en route has a very close finish, with the title clinched at the very last race, whreas on the opposite side, a series whose winner is beknown since half season... and always the same one.

I am not sure how much that has to with much really, to be honest. Is this the reason for ChampCars problems - I doubt it. Does a close IRL championship mean the IRL isnt in trouble - I doubt it.

[Alwaysfirst]

I don't think that Climb was saying that was the reason why CCWS has problems etc. Just that it is the case & also the IRL runs the races that it says it will. I love champcars but it just stinks of mismanagement & shoddy organisation when the season finale is cancelled...and is the third round this rear to have been. And it's not just this year. The casual race fan sees Ansan on the calendar. How are they to know that the circuit probably won't be finished. They just see that it is cancelled. Cancelling one round every 5 years or so can be forgiven. Cancelling at least one of the past few years & then 3 in a single season just makes the series look stupid. Surely the races should be the most important part of the series. It doesn't matter nearly as much where they're run as that they're run when everybody's been told that they're going to be run. And IMHO not having the calendar fully decided at the start of the season in what is supposed to be one of the world's top open wheel series is just not good enough.

And having deals with sponsors where if the championship is decided before the race so they cancel it, or because another round didn't turn out so well or was a bit on the expensive side they cancel it...all without any form of sanction for it?! It's the first year of a street race! For God's sake, it's going to be expensive as they need to build a track from almost nothing. If you can't budget for it then don't do it! If most series were run as poorly as this there wouldn't be nearly as much racing around.

Decide on the circuits at the very least 4 months in advance, preferable 12 months in advance, stick to them & no matter how good/bad the sponsors get a contract where if they walk they compensate the series & teams & then get the series to try to put on an alternative race, even if it does mean joining up with ALMS or GrandAm. It's just so unprofesional & flimsy the way it is, and appears now. IMO anybody that thinks that this series is healthy at the moment needs to take off the rose-tinted specs & get to grip with reality. A series can drag it's sorry little carcase through each year like this but it just cannot flourish & it's a sorry state of affairs.



And this is from a true fan of Champcars.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Alwaysfirst

I don't think that Climb was saying that was the reason why CCWS has problems etc.

Nor do I. I was trying to workout its significance in this thread

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well possibly champcar can serve markets that F1 has abandoned to go race in timbuktu. Seems Zolder and Assen have done well for 1st year events.

ChampCar has been worse for this than Formula One (which is a worldwide series, remember - it's hard to justify having more than half of races on one continent). England, Germany, Brazil, China, Korea (well, they tried), and now Holland and Belgium. The difference is that F1's new ventures have largely been successful, whereas few of ChampCars have lasted more than 5 years. Neither Zolder nor Assen will necessarily be cost-effective on its own.

[climb]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

I am not sure how much that has to with much really, to be honest. Is this the reason for ChampCars problems - I doubt it. Does a close IRL championship mean the IRL isnt in trouble - I doubt it.

It was just a "moreover" consideration; not essential then as you underline, but interesting in the perspective of attracting sponsor, teams and drivers, alonside with the further consideration that IRL have never cancelled a race in years, and their calendars have been announced way earlier.

Does it make a series healty and safe forever? Of course not, but it gives them an image of good management and reliability CC cannot even dream of.

Then everyone can criticize IRL and their owner, but about the things we talking about are undisputably better.

[Alwaysfirst]

Though that is not to take anything away from Bourdais. Love him or hate him, 4 titles (this years is a bit more than likely!) in 4 years is all you can really ask for from a driver.

[JohnSSC]

The lack of a sponsor for Phoenix was a problem from jump - before the season even started. the championship being decided at point X had nothing to do with not attracting the sponsor. The bottom line remains that companies want to get their product in front of as many faces as possible and CC just isn't bringing enough faces to the table.

To be honest, I think that the Amigos thought they could get a sweetheart deal at the street venues like they got in San Jose, where the City agreed to do the street repairs needed plus give the promoter a big lump of cash to spend however they wanted (the amount is in another thread on the forum here, I am just too lazy to go look for it!). I believe the total given to the promoter was in the seven figure range. Most municipalities can't/won't do this and San Jose is trying to rework that deal as the voter backlash was negative.

One also can't discount the damage the cancellations do to the Series and the perception of stability. A potential sponsor performing even a modicum of due diligence is likely to walk away shaking their heads. The series has teams with only 2 sponsors you would recognize: CDW (rumored to be going elsewhere already) and McDonalds (who have not been known to use CC in any of their advertising). The rest of the cars have sponsorship from iRise, who are essentilally no one and things like "Jimmy's" BBQ sauce (I think). The sponsor names look like something that model-makers come up with when designing Hot Wheels cars or something.

I know it is anathema to point this out, but the other series has cars with names I have actually heard of like 7-11 or Argent or the Marlboro colors on the Penske cars. While their TV ratings are nothing to write home to mother about either, it seems they have been reasonably more successful at attracting $$ from real companies.

To sum up, climb is making a good point. The sponsors don't give a good crap who is running the series. They want to put their product name where people will see it and the association will be positive. There is a big difference marketing something that has multiple TBA's on the schedule where they might/might not come to your town and one where the schedule is nailed down and they know they can partner with the teams and the promoters to display their product.

[indycool]

John, the city subsidy in San Jose was $2 million/year in '06 and '07. The new mayor, Chuck Reed, was a councilman who voted against the subsidy when it came up and has said "no mas."

[JohnSSC]

Yeah, I knew it was a ridiculous amount of money that was agreed on and with no need for the promoters to account what they did with it!

Thanks for verifying that IC.

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The lack of a sponsor for Phoenix was a problem from jump - before the season even started. the championship being decided at point X had nothing to do with not attracting the sponsor. The bottom line remains that companies want to get their product in front of as many faces as possible and CC just isn't bringing enough faces to the table.

To be honest, I think that the Amigos thought they could get a sweetheart deal at the street venues like they got in San Jose, where the City agreed to do the street repairs needed plus give the promoter a big lump of cash to spend however they wanted (the amount is in another thread on the forum here, I am just too lazy to go look for it!). I believe the total given to the promoter was in the seven figure range. Most municipalities can't/won't do this and San Jose is trying to rework that deal as the voter backlash was negative.

One also can't discount the damage the cancellations do to the Series and the perception of stability. A potential sponsor performing even a modicum of due diligence is likely to walk away shaking their heads. The series has teams with only 2 sponsors you would recognize: CDW (rumored to be going elsewhere already) and McDonalds (who have not been known to use CC in any of their advertising). The rest of the cars have sponsorship from iRise, who are essentilally no one and things like "Jimmy's" BBQ sauce (I think). The sponsor names look like something that model-makers come up with when designing Hot Wheels cars or something.

I know it is anathema to point this out, but the other series has cars with names I have actually heard of like 7-11 or Argent or the Marlboro colors on the Penske cars. While their TV ratings are nothing to write home to mother about either, it seems they have been reasonably more successful at attracting $$ from real companies.

To sum up, climb is making a good point. The sponsors don't give a good crap who is running the series. They want to put their product name where people will see it and the association will be positive. There is a big difference marketing something that has multiple TBA's on the schedule where they might/might not come to your town and one where the schedule is nailed down and they know they can partner with the teams and the promoters to display their product.

It is not "Jimmy's Barbecue Sauce", it is Sonny's. And it is not a barbecue sauce, it is a chain of Texas Barbecue food shops.
Sonny's sponsors the Dale Coyne car. Dale Coyne also owns at least one Sonny's franchise. I do not know if Coyne sits on the board or has a management position within Sonny's.

Roger Penske DID sit on the board of Philip Morris, which is now Altria, he is not currently listed as a board member. (Philip Morris use to own Marlboro).

I completely agree regarding series stability and perception.

Want a real reality check? Go back and look at video tape or photos from the 1992 through 2002 era CCWS.

The cars were COVERED in sponsors of major manufacturers.

It is one thing to lose an international race in an area like China or Korea where the series is not based.

It is a completely different issue to lose a race in the USA in a major metropolitan area where CCWS USE to run and the IRL lost due to low attendance.

[indycool]

Whoa, Tony, if we're still talking about Phoenix. The CART and IRL races were at the opval at P.I.R. This was a (proposed) downtown CC street race in Phoenix.

[JohnSSC]

Tony, the point was that whether it is "sonny's" or "Jimmy's" it is not a national deal and probably not that meaningful $$-wise.

I agree with you on the other points, particularly sponsorship "way back when" as i was able to go to some of the races then I saw that first hand.

Excellent point about the significance of losing a race in your home market vs Korea/China...