[Driver] Webber VS Vettel

[Marbot]

You have a 'Oh,I can't be bothered!' season and you still end up winning the championship.That's pretty damn cool in my book.

[JeremySmith]

Is this thread about facial hair?

[jab]

And so it finishes 15-2 in quali this year. Although there have been a couple where fuel-corrected Mark would've been faster, Seb has still been convincingly faster. This weekend he has been on top in pretty much every session so I'm expecting fuel loads to be pretty similar

Given that Mark isn't that slow, I'd say it's probably a combination of Mark struggling a little since his leg break and Seb being mind-blowingly fast. I'd now have him down as one of the fastest drivers (I'm talking 2 or 3) on the grid over 1 lap - only once, in Brazil, did Seb fail to make it into Q3

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by jab

This weekend he has been on top in pretty much every session so I'm expecting fuel loads to be pretty similar

Seb edge'd it by a tenth with 3 kilo's more fuel, so yep, pretty similar.

[Marbot]

Fuel adjusted (according to BBC):

2 Sebastian Vettel +0.496secs (lap 19)
3 Mark Webber +0.721 (lap 18)

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Though big enough for the team to be offering Seb a long term contract but only a one year for Mark and unfortunately for Mark, Seb is where Red Bull see their future.

Originally Posted by mac

Could also have something to do with the 10-year age gap...

Indeed, it could, or it could have something to do with....

Originally Posted by Mr V

Seb edge'd it by a tenth with 3 kilo's more fuel, so yep, pretty similar.

Then went on to win by 17 seconds, dispite being on the same fuel stratergy!

Fwiw, i do really like Mark, i'm pleased for him with the season he's had, pole position, a couple of wins, but it's just his luck that when he finally gets (possibly) the best car on the grid he's teamed up with the guy who may well be the best driver in F1 (if not now, then definately in the future!).

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Fwiw, i do really like Mark, i'm pleased for him with the season he's had, pole position, a couple of wins, but it's just his luck that when he finally gets (possibly) the best car on the grid he's teamed up with the guy who may well be the best driver in F1 (if not now, then definately in the future!).

Yep, I reckon that sums up the whole thread perfectly!

[Splatz the Cow]

[jab]

Yeah, that's about what I was expecting. Seb's on fire this weekend. He should get 2nd

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jab

Seb's on fire this weekend. He should get 2nd

Unfortunately for Seb he's had too many 'shoulds' and not enough 'dids'.

[Dutton]

Yeah, Seb will kick himself with his early season mistakes. Without those, the WDC could well have happened. Still, that is the way she runs.

I think that maybe the difference between Vettel and Webber can be seen in that Vettel was a bit disappointing in some ways (especially in the early season), whereas Mark has done a fine job, but yet Vettel has outperformed Mark. It is all about expectations based on perceptions of potential. You just expect more from Vettel than Webber, since he is undoubtedly more talented.

Good on Webber, though: this year has proven he is a very decent driver, although I don't think that has ever been in realistic doubt. He has, IMO, silenced the logically flawed Webber-hating crowd who would try to make out he was pants. This year has clearly shown he is thoroughly decent, but not on that extra level which the likes of Vettel occupy.

Vettel made a couple more mistakes in the first half of the year than I thought he would, and I thought Webber would give him a tougher run in qualifying (I still figured Vettel to have the accepted advantage, but not at all 15-2 - I was figuring something like 11-6).

Basically, on the fundamental level, this season has panned out pretty well exactly how I thought it would.

[I can see the Mika-DC comparison, but I think the difference is the overall level is higher in this case: Vettel is better than Mika; Webber is better than DC.]

**********

I see Webber has a resounding lead in the beard poll. This is a sound result.

Webber has a more fitting facial bone structure for maximum beard exploitation I think. I would say the critical thing is he has a few years on Vettel, but that would be nullified should we go for an "age adjusted" ranking system.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I think that maybe the difference between Vettel and Webber can be seen in that Vettel was a bit disappointing in some ways (especially in the early season), whereas Mark has done a fine job, but yet Vettel has outperformed Mark.

By and large I think most would agree with most of your analysis Dutton.

However, I do think Mark will be as equally disappointed as Seb...

After Hungary, Webber was well within the championship fight and looked like every bit the challenger his team mate was...

Then he:
- had a drive-through penalty for an unsafe release at Spa, costing him third or fourth.
- was taken out by Robert Kubica on the first lap at Monza, though Red Bull was not especially competitive anyway.
- crashed in practice in Singapore, before another penalty where he was forced behind two cars, before his brakes gave up.
- crashed in practice at Suzuka, ensuring he missed qualifying... destroying his weekend at a Red Bull circuit.

Both have reason to be disappointed for mistakes that cruelled their championship fights.

Yes, Vettel has been unbelievable in qualifying, but so what!?!? For the last seven years of Mark Webber's career, the broken record has been playing Qualifying Doesn't Matter ad nauseum.

As far as I'm concerned, both have been pretty much lineball all season. There have been weekends where Vettel has been untouchable - for anyone. But Webber has also shown that he is capable of such performances, just perhaps a little further apart.

Ultimately, both drivers were inconsistent - and it cost them. However, I think equally the car was not consistent enough to deliver either a championship.

Providing the car can be developed to have a larger sweet spot over the winter, it should stand everyone at Red Bull in good stead for a title fight next year... though I think McLaren are favourites at this stage.

So who do I think is the better driver? Ultimately it has to be Vettel - some of what he does is just mind-bottling (to borrow a Chaz Michaels term)... However, the gap to Webber IS outrageously small - despite what some say.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by mac

However, the gap to Webber IS outrageously small - despite what some say.

Though big enough for the team to be offering Seb a long term contract but only a one year for Mark and unfortunately for Mark, Seb is where Red Bull see their future.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Though big enough for the team to be offering Seb a long term contract but only a one year for Mark and unfortunately for Mark, Seb is where Red Bull see their future.

Could also have something to do with the 10-year age gap...

Not many drivers get more than a year at a time in any good team when into their 30s - need to keep the old boys on their toes... it's the same in football...

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Though big enough for the team to be offering Seb a long term contract but only a one year for Mark and unfortunately for Mark, Seb is where Red Bull see their future.

And there is that while their results are nearly equal, Webber is considered to be in the best form of his life, while Vettel is seen to be at the start of his career and development. Who knows whether he can string up his performances next year the way he did this year. Personally, I think he will do as well next year, but I can see why team managers could be wary.

[EGG]

It'll be interesting to see how the RBR car stacks up next year, whether it will be better, worse on on par with this year (relative to other cars), and how vettel/webber will handle that.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by EGG

It'll be interesting to see how the RBR car stacks up next year, whether it will be better, worse on on par with this year (relative to other cars), and how vettel/webber will handle that.

Well yes....F1 will always be about the car.

Alonso is a good driver who says that this season he has driven as well as ever, but no amount of skill will see you winning a championship in an uncompetetive car.

Ferrari, Renault and McLaren have had their 'KERS distraction year off' now, so next season may not be quite so easy for the teams that 'made hay' this season.

[Mr V]

Just out of interest, why is he called Potsie? Never did understand that.

[yap]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Just out of interest, why is he called Potsie? Never did understand that.

TV Show Happy Days - The character "Potsie", his last name was Webber...

[hgmonaro]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Just out of interest, why is he called Potsie? Never did understand that.

only one person seems to call him that... it hasn't caught on yet and I doubt it will.

[Adam43]

Final race of the year and Vet had the legs on Potsie.

[EBXR8]

Well Done To Seb, Also Well done to Mark, that last lap was heart in your mouth stuff, he had that car by the neck and did a good job on ailing tyres and brakes to keep button behind. I must also say the post race press conference was a funny event also, Seb, Mark and Jenson all giving it to one another, was quite good to see.

[Bononi]

That might be the truth.

[Born Racer]

So, to keep the thread thriving, who's going to come out top next year? Will Vettel ascend to a higher plane, and has Webber any more to give?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

So, to keep the thread thriving, who's going to come out top next year? Will Vettel ascend to a higher plane, and has Webber any more to give?

I read that Webbo still has 'stuff' to be removed from his leg suggesting that he still ain't in top nick then, so he will start 2010 better than this season and ought to be challenging from the off.