Proposed Changes to Flag Regs

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

You could also argue that the positioning of flags is a contributing factor, as an ex single seat driver, when your bum is an inch off the ground and your nose cone is under the gearbox of the car in front, a flag 50 yards to the right or left is not exactly in line of sight is it?
I didn't back off for a waved yellow in most circumstances, just got ready to chance direction in a hurry.

Do you apply the same 'rules' when a driver is brought in front of you for a flag infringement or is it a case of 'do what I say, not what I did'?

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by Kangaroo75

I wonder when the MSA are going to update the Post Chiefs report form to reflect the new flag rules, as of 2 mins ago (16:10 on 20/12/13) it still has a "stationary" tick box for Flag infringements

the change comes in to affect on Jan 1st 2014 so still time to change it

[Kangaroo75]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

the change comes in to affect on Jan 1st 2014 so still time to change it

It was a bit of a rhetorical question really, my point was the MSA don't have much time left before 1/1/14

[kipper]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

if drivers are getting too used to waved yellows and ignoring them then something needs to be done about driving standards not the flag system. I've both raced and marshal and always slow down for yellow flags....if drivers aren't paying attention then they should have their licences removed

Without wishing to dispute the above, I think there have been a reasonable number of instances where waved yellows have been used in instances when a stationary (or hazard board is sufficient). I've also seen a few examples of double waved yellows being used to cover fairly routine things (I'm sure that there are a number of reasons for this - some touched upon in other posts). It is perhaps not surprising that due to the competitive instincts some (not all) drivers are becoming blasé to yellow flags. This approach as least has the benefits of standardising everyone's approach. Whilst I'm not sure that a new system is the answer, I can understand the thought process.

[racerkeke]

I think where this is going to have the largest impact is in Race Control. Racegypsy's post is correct about some of the things you have to do which are simply not necessary under the North American system, such as writing physical reports.

Similar DWY rules exist for non-SCCA series, especially here on the Left Coast. We have been at minimal flagger numbers for many years now, so changes have occurred incrementally to cover some of the situations you mentioned, and just about all of those have been at the Race Control level.

1. Before any day on track, stations who feel themselves to be understaffed make arrangements on the landline or radio with adjacent stations: "If you see me doing this, call it!" Race Control notes this as part of the day's SOP (listens in on the conversation and may request or suggest a refinement to what the stations themselves have agreed to).

2. All conversations on the radio or landline are digitally recorded. This is in addition to an official written and timestamped log of everything that goes on on the communication net (logger is a listen-only, piggybacked on the RC communicator's feed). These two items represent the legal, binding record of the event. Written reports are required only in specific situations as called for by the operating steward. #1 above may in fact be entered into the log at some events.

3. CCTV is your friend. I don't think I've visited a track in the past two years without a working CCTV setup -- if the track runs street car days they need to have one, for legal reasons. Even at club races RC uses the CCTV feed to "fill in" information to generate red flags, stage rescue trucks, etc. After the session is neutralized we can go back and figure out who did what to whom if necessary.

4. No storytelling in extremis -- station and flag status only as a first call. It alerts RC to look at the video feed and ask specific questions/make decisions. The tone of your voice tells us a lot! It also frees you up to do other things that may be more immediately important.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out for you.
Keke

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by Kangaroo75

It was a bit of a rhetorical question really, my point was the MSA don't have much time left before 1/1/14

will take less that 5 minutes to changed the wording over

[Stack]

Now that I'm out of my 50's with all this extra arm movement I think it may be time to downgrade to post chief.......

[Woolley]

The thought only now occurs to me... that on the days when you're single manned and doing both jobs, you're waving both yellows and someone overtakes under yellow.

Can't report it, can't make a note of it, driver gets away with it. Excellent, by trying to improve visibility, we've just removed the effectiveness.

[Apple]

Originally Posted by Woolley

The thought only now occurs to me... that on the days when you're single manned and doing both jobs, you're waving both yellows and someone overtakes under yellow.

Can't report it, can't make a note of it, driver gets away with it. Excellent, by trying to improve visibility, we've just removed the effectiveness.

Then what follows is if your single manned, the meeting is not safe so can not go ahead.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Apple

Then what follows is if your single manned, the meeting is not safe so can not go ahead.

I cannot even recall a meeting where the MSA/FIA steward refused to sanction a meeting starting due to under manning.
Once, after one decidedly undermanned Donington meeting, I asked a well known steward if he would ever do it and his reply was 'only the once - and that would be the last stewarding job I even got offered'.

[Joyce George]

Originally Posted by Woolley

The thought only now occurs to me... that on the days when you're single manned and doing both jobs, you're waving both yellows and someone overtakes under yellow.

Can't report it, can't make a note of it, driver gets away with it. Excellent, by trying to improve visibility, we've just removed the effectiveness.

And that is before we even think about reporting any wheels off!!!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Joyce George

And that is before we even think about reporting any wheels off!!!

Haha yeh, not asking much of us this year are they!

They really are a bunch of plebs...they may do things with the right intentions and ideas, but haven't thought anything through at all!

I've seen both sides of it, as a competitor too with new rules being brought in over the last few years it's turned people away who have now gone 'non msa' racing instead....

[JimW]

I've always declined any invitation to act as both Post Chief and Flag. Happy to do either but not both.

Fortunately at Oulton, where I do most of my observing, this does not arise.

Jim

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by JimW

I've always declined any invitation to act as both Post Chief and Flag. Happy to do either but not both.

Fortunately at Oulton, where I do most of my observing, this does not arise OFTEN.

Jim

[JimW]

Actually Number6 it has not happened to me at Oulton at all so the "Often" remains your addition.

Jim

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by JimW

Actually Number6 it has not happened to me at Oulton at all so the "Often" remains your addition.

Jim

Understood. I was attempting to expand the specific to the generic and serves me right. Oulton is usually well staffed. I've never known a "one man" post (other than flag) but I have known one PC, no flag and two trainees. Still doable using the ancient skills of delegation.

[JimW]

Dreaded double post.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Understood. I was attempting to expand the specific to the generic and serves me right. Oulton is usually well staffed. I've never known a "one man" post (other than flag) but I have known one PC, no flag and two trainees. Still doable using the ancient skills of delegation.

Absolutely. Actually I often get others than flag marshals to have a bit of experience waving rags.

Personally I would replace them all by a decent light system. (Still operated by a "flag" marshal on a flag point.) This view is reinforced by a recent trip to Yas Marina in Abu Dhabi and seeing the excellent light system there.

Oulton lights are badly placed in some cases and there is the potential for confusion when people persist with flags as well.

Regards

Jim

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by JimW

Absolutely. Actually I often get others than flag marshals to have a bit of experience waving rags.

Personally I would replace them all by a decent light system. (Still operated by a "flag" marshal on a flag point.) This view is reinforced by a recent trip to Yas Marina in Abu Dhabi and seeing the excellent light system there.

Oulton lights are badly placed in some cases and there is the potential for confusion when people persist with flags as well.

Regards

Jim

That's where I disagree with you....I like the lights when it's very wet and spray is being kicked up so they are really visible.....but after that I hate them.

One of the arts to being a flaggie is getting your emotions across to the driver....for a small incident you may only have to wave a flag, for a large one you can pretty much throw your whole body into it and really let the driver know there's something wrong or the leader REALLY needs to get past....a light box is so sterile in comparison

Plus a light box can only show 1 flag at a time...no good for oil/white flags again

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

That's where I disagree with you....I like the lights when it's very wet and spray is being kicked up so they are really visible.....but after that I hate them.

One of the arts to being a flaggie is getting your emotions across to the driver....for a small incident you may only have to wave a flag, for a large one you can pretty much throw your whole body into it and really let the driver know there's something wrong or the leader REALLY needs to get past....a light box is so sterile in comparison

I could not disagree more in practice. This is another case of the (supposed) perfect being the enemy of the good.

Plus a light box can only show 1 flag at a time...no good for oil/white flags again

Simply not true - it is just a matter of decent design.

Jim

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by JimW

I could not disagree more in practice. This is another case of the (supposed) perfect being the enemy of the good.

Simply not true - it is just a matter of decent design.

Jim

I agree with the design thing, they could show more than 1 flag....but currently don't, well not with any box I've used!

I don't think the light boxes are perfect...like I said they are good in the wet or bad light for visibility.......but if I've got a car spun deep in the gravel trap where there is little danger, or a blocked track and/or injured driver...they show the same thing.....I can show different levels of danger with the way I move my flag....I can't do that with a button!

[mattt]

Maybe a light box with a speed control would be able to help in those circumstances. turn it on slow flash (wave) turn the speed up more urgent

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by mattt

Maybe a light box with a speed control would be able to help in those circumstances. turn it on slow flash (wave) turn the speed up more urgent

Yup variable speed and several boxes so you can show double waved yellow, debris and white at the same time would be the solution......

.....oh wait, we already have that...it's called a stick with a rag on the end of it....sooooo much cheeper!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Yup variable speed and several boxes so you can show double waved yellow, debris and white at the same time would be the solution......

.....oh wait, we already have that...it's called a stick with a rag on the end of it....sooooo much cheeper!

But actually pretty ineffective.

Jim

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Yup variable speed and several boxes so you can show double waved yellow, debris and white at the same time would be the solution......

.....oh wait, we already have that...it's called a stick with a rag on the end of it....sooooo much cheeper!

Showing a double waved yellow flag, a white flag and a "CHANGE OF SURFACE" flag at the same time.
"Go ahead, make my day!"

I agree with those who have said that we can only do what is possible and we must concentrate on the safety of the marshals and drivers first. If they don't get a report, so be it.
It will be interesting at the Britcar or 2CV 24hr races or any Friday sessions!