USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by abruzzifan

Bingo.

I'm really not sure why all the former ALMS-fans castaways seem so intent on believing that cars with distinctly different performance styles are going to produce "bad" racing. Big (-ish) power vs nimble. Sounds good to me.

Depends on how wide the gulf is between the cars on each chapter. They still need to be relatively close in both aspects for the balancing act to work properly, if one car has too much of an advantage in one area while having a similar disadvantage in the other area... it just ain't gonna happen like we'd like it to happen.

[dangerousdave79]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

It's not an either/or, most fans have an element of both. Some people will watch ANYTHING race. Lawn mowers, swamp buggies, etc.

Swamp buggy racing is pretty entertaining. I didn't take this video but I was there that day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7vMNEBe6GM

[jeast]

Originally Posted by dangerousdave79

Swamp buggy racing is pretty entertaining. I didn't take this video but I was there that day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7vMNEBe6GM

Oh Ft Myers my good old home town.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by slappy2happy87

Look for a huge North American announcement at Lemans during the press conference that DP's will be allowed to race at Lemans in 2014 and to celebrate Jim France is waiving the flag. The 2014 race will also be know as "The USCR invades Lemans super weekend"

And what does the ACO get out of this?

[Purist]

Greg, he's being facetious.

Yeah, LMP1/2 in 2006-08 was good, but as is already stated, it depends on how wide the gulf is. DPs are already faster in a straight line than LMP2s. Adding power to the DPs will only make that worse. One of the big problems is, unless the LMP2s can just go around the outside of the DPs in the corners, how are they ever going to be able to pass the DPs on-track? If the DPs pull a big gap on the straights, the LMP2s are going to spend all of their braking advantage just to get back to the DPs, only to have the DPs pull away again when they hit the next straight.

Do keep in mind that, if the one Audi hadn't had near-catastrophic gearbox issues, Penske would not have won Mosport 2007. Penske shouldn't have won Road America in 2007, but they had an abundance of caution, largely thanks to a thunderstorm moving through, and then the two Audis decided to fight each other rather than track down the leading RS Spyder.

The DPs will have the advantage at just about any roval. The same is true of the temporary circuits, except for a place like Belle Isle. The road courses are the real mixed bag, though some will definitely favor one or the other. Road America will probably go to the DPs, while Lime Rock would favor the LMP2s.

[gregtummer]

I know he was being over the top, but if the ACO does allow DPs in the Le Mans 24, what are they getting out of it?

They should be able to run Daytona or Watkins Glen then.

[TF110]

I have a hard time seeing a dp out qualify an lmp2. There probably wont be lmp2 cars anyway at the rate its going. Thats what I am expecting honestly. I will continue not to watch this series. Hell its hard to even find the races on TV anyway.

[Purist]

How do you continue to not watch a series that hasn't even come into existence yet? Were you actually referring to Grand-Am?

[TF110]

Thats effectively what it will be. Theyll end up screwing the teams over that make this 'merger' appealing to people who enjoy watching the ALMS. Judging by your rhetorical question you agree that this is "grand-am".

[trickyd]

As John Cooper, Colin Chapman and latterly Adrian Newey have shown, the secret of a fast lap around a race track, or road course, is in the speed you are able to take around corners. The Red Bulls are routinely amongst the slowest, if not the slowest, through the speed traps at F1 weekends. Hasn't done them any harm though has it? This has been orthodox thought in race car design since around 1959.

[schmidder]

Originally Posted by trickyd

As John Cooper, Colin Chapman and latterly Adrian Newey have shown, the secret of a fast lap around a race track, or road course, is in the speed you are able to take around corners. The Red Bulls are routinely amongst the slowest, if not the slowest, through the speed traps at F1 weekends. Hasn't done them any harm though has it? This has been orthodox thought in race car design since around 1959.

Apples to oranges when applied to Sports Car racing and specifically GT traffic. In F1, Red Bull can qualify up front because of the cornering difference, and teams basically have to out strategize them in the pits to win. Up until this year, Vettel would qualify on pole and then drive away. Traffic really plays no role. With protos and gts competing together, the car with the horsepower and acceleration has a big advantage when overtaking the constant traffic or even recovering from being held up. Slow up a lower hp P2 coming out of a corner and it has a huge effect, not so much on a DP.

A good example was the ALMS race at Laguna Seca in 2009 (I think). The Penske Spyder was as faster or faster with lap times than the Audis, but the torque of the R10 would just blow by the spyder anytime traffic was encountered coming down from the corkscrew to the front straight (and won the race). Don't get me wrong it was great racing, and the difference between the cars in this scenario made for one of the best races I have seen. Just hoping Grand Am can get the performance 'gulf' right. Would be great.

[Purist]

Precisely. You have to have the room, and clean enough air, to make use of cornering performance, in F1, or Sportscars. Unless you can go around the outside when there's a DP right in front of you, that cornering advantage of your LMP2 is worthless.

[Purist]

Just posting an update of some of my previous data rundowns.

(LMP2/DP Favorability)

Current Sportscar Circuits:
1. Austin (about even)
2. Baltimore (favors DPs)
3. Barber (favors LMP2s)
4. Daytona (favors DPs)
5. Detroit Long (about even)
6. Indianapolis (favors DPs)
7. Kansas (favors DPs)
8. Laguna Seca (favors LMP2s)
9. Lime Rock (favors LMP2s)
10. Long Beach (favors DPs)
11. Mid Ohio (about even)
12. Mosport (favors LMP2s)
13. Road America (favors DPs)
14. Road Atlanta (about even)
15. Sebring (favors LMP2s)
16. VIRginia (favors LMP2s)
17. Watkins Glen GP (about even)

Currently Active Circuits that have hosted Grand-Am or ALMS:
1. Charlotte (favors DPs)
2. Detroit Short (favors LMP2s)
3. Fontana (favors DPs)
4. Homestead (favors DPs)
5. Iowa (favors LMP2s)
6. Las Vegas (favors DPs)
7. Mexico City (about even, favors turbos)
8. Miller (about even, favors turbos)
9. Mont Tremblant (favors LMP2s)
10. Montreal (favors DPs)
11. Phoenix (about even)
12. Portland (about even)
13. Reliant Park (about even)
14. Sears Point (favors LMP2s)
15. St. Petersburg (about even)
16. Texas (favors DPs)
17. Thunderbolt (favors LMP2s)
18. Watkins Glen Short (favors DPs)

(Lap Records)

Current North American Sportscar Venues:
1. Austin- 3.427 miles (20 turns), 1:59.811 (102.972-mph), DP (2013)
2. Baltimore- 2.070/2.040 miles (14/12 turns), 1:24.982 (87.689-mph), LMP1 (2012)
3. Barber- 2.300 miles (17 turns), 1:18.949 (104.878-mph), DP (2013)
4. Belle Isle- 2.385 miles (13 turns), 1:27.675 (97.930-mph), DP (2013)
5. Daytona- 3.560 miles (15 turns), 1:40.099 (128.033-mph), DP (2011)
6. Indianapolis- 2.534 miles (13 turns), 1:22.712 (110.291-mph), DP (2012)
7. Kansas- 2.370 miles (10 turns), N/A (N/A), DP (2013)
8. Laguna Seca- 2.238 miles (11 turns), 1:10.103 (114.928-mph), LMP1 (2008)
9. Lime Rock- 1.500 miles (9 turns), 44.017 (122.680-mph), LMP1 (2012)
10. Long Beach- 1.968 miles (11 turns), 1:11.330 (99.324-mph), LMP1 (2008)
11. Mid Ohio- 2.258 miles (13 turns), 1:07.969 (119.596-mph), LMP1 (2008)
12. Mosport- 2.459 miles (10 turns), 1:04.094 (138.116-mph), LMP1 (2008)
13. Road America- 4.048 miles (14 turns), 1:46.935 (136.277-mph), LMP1 (2008)
14. Road Atlanta- 2.540 miles (12 turns), 1:06.242 (138.039-mph), LMP1 (2008)
15. Sebring- 3.700 miles (17 turns), 1:43.195 (129.076-mph), LMP1 (2008)
16. Virginia Int'l- 3.270 miles (17 turns), 1:35.434 (123.352-mph), LMP1 (2012)
17. Watkins Glen- 3.400 miles (15 turns), 1:38.011 (124.884-mph), GTP (1993)

Sportscar Circuits Since 2000:
1. Bayfront Park- 1.387 miles (14 turns), 1:03.873 (78.174-mph), LMP900 (2002)
2. Bayfront Park- 1.150 miles (12 turns), 47.848 (86.524-mph), LMP900 (2003)
3. Belle Isle- 2.125 miles (14 turns), 1:13.357 (104.285-mph), LMP1 (2007)
4. Charlotte- 2.250 miles (14 turns), 1:04.096 (126.373-mph), LMP900 (2000)
5. Fontana- 2.880 miles (21 Turns), 1:29.151 (116.297-mph), SRP-I (2002)
6. Homestead- 2.300 miles (11 turns), 1:11.806 (115.311-mph), DP (2010)
7. Iowa- 1.300 miles (10 turns), 41.624 (112.435-mph), DP (2007)
8. Las Vegas- 2.250 miles (13 turns), 1:06.628 (121.571-mph), LMP900 (2000)
9. Mexico City- 2.786 miles (18 turns), 1:44.964 (95.553-mph), DP (2005)
10. Mexico City- 2.500 miles (10 turns), 1:19.508 (113.196-mph), DP (2008)
11. Miller (long)- 4.486 miles (23 turns), 2:18.128 (116.918-mph), LMP1 (2007)
12. Miller (short)- 3.048 miles (17 turns), 1:30.645 (121.052-mph), LMP1 (2009)
13. Mont Tremblant- 2.650 miles (15 turns), 1:22.961 (114.994), SRP-I (2002)
14. Montreal- 2.709 miles (12 turns), 1:31.524 (106.556-mph), DP (2010)
15. Phoenix- 1.510 miles (12 turns), 49.669 (109.445-mph), GTP (1992)
16. Portland- 1.964 miles (13 turns), 1:02.712 (112.744-mph), LMP1 (2005)
17. Reliant Park, 1.690/1.683 miles (12 turns), 1:01.824 (98.001-mph), LMP1 (2007)
18. Sears Point- 2.520 miles (12 turns), 1:20.683 (112.440-mph), LMP900 (2000)
19. St. Petersburg- 1.800 miles (14 turns), 1:02.825 (103.144-mph), LMP1 (2008)
20. Texas- 2.324 miles (13 turns), 1:12.716 (115.056-mph), LMP900 (2000)
21. Thunderbolt- 2.250 miles (13 turns), 1:14.057 (109.375-mph), DP (2009)
22. Trois Rivieres- 1.521 miles (10 turns), 57.740 (94.832-mph), LMP900 (2003)
23. Washington D.C.- 1.670 miles (7 turns), 1:03.287 (94.996-mph), LMP900 (2002)
24. Watkins Glen- 2.450 miles (11 turns), 58.669 (150.335-mph), GTP (1992)

[EricS]

Did anyone hear Ryan Dalziel's interview on MWM yesterday? Starworks ran the DP and P2 car at Sebring back-to-back and have real world comparison data. Basically, he said the P2 car is faster everywhere on the track, not just in the corners. So, it's actually easier to make the 2 competitive.

Direct link to the interview: http://audio.rpix.org.uk/grand-am/20...alziel_int.mp3

[schmidder]

Listening now, great to hear a professional driver talk about all this and lend data and opinion...thanks for posting
ErikS

[joeb]

Originally Posted by EricS

Did anyone hear Ryan Dalziel's interview on MWM yesterday? Starworks ran the DP and P2 car at Sebring back-to-back and have real world comparison data. Basically, he said the P2 car is faster everywhere on the track, not just in the corners. So, it's actually easier to make the 2 competitive.

Direct link to the interview: http://audio.rpix.org.uk/grand-am/20...alziel_int.mp3

One slight correction, they didn't run the P2 with the DP. They used their P2 data from 2012 opening practice(s) at Sebring so they could compare green track times to green track times.

But I agree it was good to hear Ryan be so optimistic.

[MoMedic9019]

It's all doable, but, people like Ganassi need to get off their horses, and admit that. They may lose a race to a P2 car, and that a they are not the top of the pile come 2014. Spend the money, engineer the car, and lets get on with this. I'm actually tired of waiting now.....

[ttdriver2009]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

It's all doable, but, people like Ganassi need to get off their horses, and admit that. They may lose a race to a P2 car, and that a they are not the top of the pile come 2014. Spend the money, engineer the car, and lets get on with this. I'm actually tired of waiting now.....

Can you provide a link where Ganassi has been complaining about this? For some reason I keep reading about all of the other DP teams complaining but nothing from Ganassi, unless I missed something. I'm wondering if he's going to jump ship and run a P2 car because it's the one that will win.

[Brownj]

Yes, it was great interview. Ryan spoke very candidly about the whole situation. I'm glad to see some real world testing being done to help push this thing in the right direction. Simulations can only go so far! Clearly there is going to have be a lot of work done to the DP to bring it up to speed around the entire track. I would hope this would push Elkins and co. into doing some side-by-side testing at several different tracks as soon as possible to collect more data.

[MoMedic9019]

I just think it's funny that they told them they were wasting money on sims...

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by EricS

Did anyone hear Ryan Dalziel's interview on MWM yesterday?

Thanks, Eric. Very informative. Ryan is a very effective speaker and communicator with a huge amount of information based upon experience. I can see a TV commentator job in his future.

[CyberMotor]

...or, an addition to the great RLM crew. Hat's off to Hindy and crew for once again delivering.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Great interview.

So a guy that drives both DP and LMP2 says that DPs are slower, heavier, have a higher center of gravity, are old technology and, most significantly to me, states that they drive more like a GT car than a prototype.

I'll ask this again:

What does a Daytona Prototype bring to the race/show/event, other than low cost (compared to LMP) and the fact that there are nine billion of them on the grid in Grand-Am, that a GTE car with a 20 percent larger restrictor doesn't?

To me, a prototype only makes sense if it has significantly higher performance than a GT car. Since the DPs and GTs don't handle much differently than each other, then giving GTE a small restrictor increase, possibly coupled with a slight weight reduction (if it can be done via ballast removal, and only if needed, which I doubt) to bring them up to DP performance.

Using Corvette as an example, what benefit does Corvette derive from running a Corvette DP AND a Corvette GTE in USCR? Anyone can see than the Vette GTE is a Corvette, while someone had to come up with bodywork that would fit over several generic chassis with a pre-determined wheelbase that looks "Corvette-like".

A GTE car can be made faster than a DP for far less money and effort than making a DP SIGNIFICANTLY faster than a GTE. GTE cars are easy to tell apart from each other and they are readily identifiable by the casual fan as being a Corvette, Porsche, or Ferrari. GTE hands down looks better than DP. They showcase the technical ability of the manufacturer in a much more identifiable way. The cars can be raced in series other than Grand-Am/USCR without having to create a special class for them. Changing restrictor size for USCR would make it very easy for a GTE team to race at Le Mans, if desired.

If DPs don't offer a more exciting show than GT, what's the point?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Without Audi and Toyota what does any prototype class bring to America that GTE doesn't?

And don't say speed, with the exception of LMP1, which is gone from USCR, the speed of DP or LMP2 is no more impressive than that of GTE, especially when you're at the track.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Without Audi and Toyota what does any prototype class bring to America that GTE doesn't?

And don't say speed, with the exception of LMP1, which is gone from USCR, the speed of DP or LMP2 is no more impressive than that of GTE, especially when you're at the track.

You can't tell me that sitting on Spectator Hill at Road Atlanta that you can't tell a major difference in speed of the LMP2s flying through the esses compared to the DPs or GTEs.