[FIA GT] GT3 European Championship 2011

[AndrewF31]

I was at Portimão the weekend of the race. Love the GT3s. Their sound is lower than the GT1s but not too high for you to understand the differences between the cars.

I was at the VIP Tower at the beginning of the lap and witnessed the almost disaster that envolved the Ferrari and the Mercedes SLS, that went flying into the crash site the lap after the Ferrari stopped on the side of the track. Track workers were preparing to remove the Ferrari when the Mercedes got involved in a tussle with another SLS at the top of the crest and it lost control. A lot of luck meant the SLS inserted itself to the right of the Ferrari, hitting the wall. Thankfully nothing more than a scare for the 2 track workers that ran for their lives when they saw the SLS swerving towards them.

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by Racenut

20kg in the Z4 would make a noticeable difference. But if you take away all the GT3 restrictions and added a flat floor, got the aero working, the Z4 is still short on capacity compared to other GT1 cars. It would be competitive at some tracks so it would be interesting to see.

Noticeable? Sure 20kg makes a small difference in lap time but even though the GT1 and GT3 cars might be somewhat close in general, we still speak about a clear performance difference. Other GT3 cars have 25, 50 and even 100kg of ballast, so Z4 is possibly the least penalized car at the moment, hence beating the opponents in the 1st FIA GT3 race.

OK, that's another story, but if you see the qualifying times of Portimao (a circuit where the gaps are famously close comparing to some other circuits) qualifying time of the best Z4 was 4 seconds short of the GT1 pole. I bet 20kg makes 1 tenth, approximately, if you stretch it we might settle in 0,2 seconds but surely not more.

In any case, 1210kg of the Z4 is exactly in the ballpark of all today's GT1 cars (Lambo lightest of all with 1190 and Nissan heaviest of all with 1235kg, ref. FIA website), so if they'd step up to GT1, do not expect to get rid of a lot of weight.

Of course, GT1 might have a bit quicker drivers (although some top GT1 guys like Maxime Martin also race in GT3), the tyres might be a bit quicker (although I believe they are basically the same, just a step softer), carbon brakes, aero, flat floor etc.

However, someone smarter than me has to calculate if all the above easily equalizes to finding that missing 4 seconds. And how much would it cost for a privateer team to upgrade an existing GT3 car to GT1 spec?

[Racenut]

Ok lets have a more detailed look at what I was talking about with the Z4 and what is required to upgrade it to GT1.

Remove the ballast = 1190kg
Remove the restrictor = 550hp approx
Power to weight = 2.16
Install flat floor
Reduce ride height by 10mm = a lot more downforce
Softer tyres (double the allowance)
Carbon brakes (make a difference in first 10 metres or so) better initial bite

I think all of that would make for a very quick car (probably about 4 seconds).

Nissan power to weight approx 2, which is better than Z4 but nissan has a bigger frontal area which gives more drap. more drag needs more power.

Thats just my observation, I am sure BMW have looked into it, they dont enter any category unless they can win.

BTW I would not call Schubert a privateer team, they have been racing at the top level for a long time. It wouldnt take them much to make the Z4 competitive in GT1.

[Danny_GT2]

Would be nice to see a Z4 GT1 but it won't happen, mainly because of the fact that having the smaller Z4 more powerful than the bigger GT2 M3 would look ridiculous, unless BMW make a Z4 M with an M3 engine! Also on the subject of BMW in GT1, what happened to the Alpina B6 project or was that just words??

[Valker]

FIA GT3 race at Smolenskring is cancelled (as well as Formula Surperleague round at the same circuit).
http://openracing.ru/news/4496

[skells22]

any replacement?

[Marcel ten Caat]

Mind you that no official statement has come from SRO on this subject yet.

In the meantime the FIA has confirmed 28 cars on the GT3 entry list for Silverstone.

[helgi]

Very disappointed.

[Marcel ten Caat]

Official statement is there and the race is off for 2011.

"We will continue to work to have a race in Russia in the near future, probably in 2012. We will be announcing the alternative venue for Round 5 as soon as we have finalised everything with the new circuit." - Stephane Ratel

[AndrewF31]

Too ambitious and costly to haul the cars all the way to Russia?

[helgi]

A local sponsor pulled out suddenly. Freacking ridiculous (c)

[Purist]

The replacement is the Slovakia Ring, and it seems they will be using the full ~6km layout. I have to say that this track might well be an improvement over the Smolensk Ring. It's not so tight and confined, and has multiple straights of enough length to give some real overtaking potential. Slovakia even has a some elevation changes, which is always nice.

[Deleted]

I thought GT3E and ADAC GT Masters were running with the same BoP, but apparently not

BMW Z4
FIA GT3: 1x85mm / 1245kg (1210kg at the start of the season)
ADAC: 1x85mm / 1225kg

Corvette Z06 GT3
FIA GT3: 1x49mm / 1350kg
ADAC: 1x49mm / 1280kg (1330kg at the start of the season)

Too bored to list the others but no wonder Callaway quit FIAsco GT3, obviously it's still not fair with that ridiculous restrictor but at least the weight is more tolerable

[Nick6]

I know I have said this before but BOP is a disaster!

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I thought GT3E and ADAC GT Masters were running with the same BoP, but apparently not

BMW Z4
FIA GT3: 1x85mm / 1245kg (1210kg at the start of the season)
ADAC: 1x85mm / 1225kg

Corvette Z06 GT3
FIA GT3: 1x49mm / 1350kg
ADAC: 1x49mm / 1280kg (1330kg at the start of the season)

Too bored to list the others but no wonder Callaway quit FIAsco GT3, obviously it's still not fair with that ridiculous restrictor but at least the weight is more tolerable

I think there are 2 main BoPs: one for the FIA GT3 (sprint races, softer tyres) and one for the Blancpain Endurance Series (endurance races, harder tyres).

I don't know how all the national championships are doing it (ADAC, FFSA, UK sprint races, Belcar longer races), but they all do use the same tyre as Blancpain so it would make sense to follow that instead of the FIA one, if they are allowed, that is..

Personally, I think that the FIA GT3 BoP has been a disaster and in Blancpain + national series, it's fairly good. I'm sure there are lots of people disagreeing...

As for the Corvette, I think it's not fair it has been killed like that in FIA GT3. On the other hand, it was far too fast in most parts of 2010 and therefore got the title with a too easy BoP and now pays for it with a one that is too strict.

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by Nick6

I know I have said this before but BOP is a disaster!

It is, very much so. But without it, these championships would not exist and the GT3 concept would not be this popular. So, our choice is not to have GT3 or live with the BoP.

Personally, I just hope that they'd make the BoP in a better way. After all, it works fairly well in ALMS/LMS, GT1 etc.

[Deleted]

The one and only reason that kept Callaway in the hunt for drivers trophy (not teams) last year was the fact that the line-up of the lead car was superior. FIA started raping them harder after Brno and by september they were the heaviest car (loaded with succcess ballast and 80kg BoP weight, reduced from July's 100kg) with easily the smallest restrictor on the field. So no, they didn't get that title "with too easy" BoP

Z4 on the other hand will

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by Jameson

It is, very much so. But without it, these championships would not exist and the GT3 concept would not be this popular. So, our choice is not to have GT3 or live with the BoP.

Personally, I just hope that they'd make the BoP in a better way. After all, it works fairly well in ALMS/LMS, GT1 etc.

I like the class, the problem I find is GT3 is a very expensive "flavor of the day" type of class. The car to have 2 seasons ago is no longer competitive and not to mention that in a mere 5 years European GT3 has lost Maserati, Lotus (might join again?), Ascari, Morgan, Alpina, Chrysler, and now Corvette.

Remember the GT3 "concept" when it first started the standard Porsche cup car was the base platform?

[pez]

agreed 2 things need to change soon...

1) GT3 cars should be contained at current speeds. I believe the GT3 cars of today are some 6 secs a lap faster at somewhere like SPA than GT3 in its inaugural year

2) Costs.The newest GT3 cars cost Euro 300k ++++ and that is just the base car. Add a couple of options and a base spares package and you're looking closer to 450K.... This is just insane !

I think GT3 has moved to GT2 territory i.e far from its initial purpose
"The FIA GT3 European Championship was launched in 2006 as a way to expand manufacturer involvement in motorsports as well as to help amateur drivers across Europe."

so what replaces GT3 as the supposed entry? GT4? it could do but there seems to be little focus on this level certainly from the SRO.

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by pez

agreed 2 things need to change soon...

1) GT3 cars should be contained at current speeds. I believe the GT3 cars of today are some 6 secs a lap faster at somewhere like SPA than GT3 in its inaugural year

2) Costs.The newest GT3 cars cost Euro 300k ++++ and that is just the base car. Add a couple of options and a base spares package and you're looking closer to 450K.... This is just insane !

I think GT3 has moved to GT2 territory i.e far from its initial purpose
"The FIA GT3 European Championship was launched in 2006 as a way to expand manufacturer involvement in motorsports as well as to help amateur drivers across Europe."

so what replaces GT3 as the supposed entry? GT4? it could do but there seems to be little focus on this level certainly from the SRO.

I agree with everything you say.

The 1st round of GT3 cars cost something like €100-150.000. Already the 2nd year (2007?) Matech's Ford GT among some others was costing €300.000 and that remained the basic/max price of all cars for the next couple of years. Now, the new ones go for around €400.000. Why has this been allowed? I thought there used to be a maximum price set by the rules, €260.000 or around that, at the time when Audi brought the R8 in the picture.

GT3 is cool because of the variety of cars. However, it needs stricter technical rules to keep the development in some control. Maybe a standard ECU? Any other ideas?

Also, the manufacturers are basically allowed to do anything they want, so some of them have opted to develop a superior car and then hope not to be hit too hard with the BoP. This is the expensive way.

The fact that the cars are now several seconds per lap quicker than a few years ago is bringing no advantage to anyone. Just costing more.

I've heard that the budgets the team's ask for FIA GT3 season have in worst cases reached and exceeded €400.000. If you are a gentleman driver who have to cover it all because the "pro" or "gold" you want to race with has no money, it's just crazy for a championship like that. They could probably do ILMC in an LMP car, including Le Mans, with that kind of money.

So, why would they stay in a championship where they can choose whatever car but have to wait until the 1st race to know if BoP is on their side or against and effectively drive either a competitive car or not. Also, if you are a gentleman driver, you anyway don't have a chance to win in FIA GT3, because every year the races and title are won by Silver-Silver pairings, which is another big problem of this championship.

In short, I think BoP is necessary and those driver categorizations (pro-am) is a good idea, but if they are done the way it's done now, it just doesn't work.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Nick6

I like the class, the problem I find is GT3 is a very expensive "flavor of the day" type of class. The car to have 2 seasons ago is no longer competitive and not to mention that in a mere 5 years European GT3 has lost Maserati, Lotus (might join again?), Ascari, Morgan, Alpina, Chrysler, and now Corvette.

Remember the GT3 "concept" when it first started the standard Porsche cup car was the base platform?

I was hoping that some of these 'lost' cars would surface again in the Blancpain series, at least a couple of Vipers, Corvettes and Alpinas. I guess they're just limited to the Dutch Supercar Challenge now.

[Speed-King]

The Alpinas are actually super-competitive this year in ADAC GT-Masters...

[Speed-King]

The 1st round of GT3 cars cost something like €100-150.000. Already the 2nd year (2007?) Matech's Ford GT among some others was costing €300.000 and that remained the basic/max price of all cars for the next couple of years. Now, the new ones go for around €400.000. Why has this been allowed? I thought there used to be a maximum price set by the rules, €260.000 or around that, at the time when Audi brought the R8 in the picture.

Another kind of random thought: There's an upside to the evolution of GT3 - could anyone see the GT3 cars of 2006 becoming an international top-class?

Imagine GT1 dying and being replaced by Cup-Porsches!

[lms]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Imagine GT1 dying and being replaced by Cup-Porsches!

now that's a disturbing thought

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Imagine GT1 dying and being replaced by Cup-Porsches!

I had some wisdom teeth removed a couple of days ago and Im in enough pain atm without thinking of that thanks