Stoner, Rossi and the "Crap" Ducati

[jhansen]

Not to mention, the jury is still out on whether Moto 2 is suitable training ground for GP.

It's a good choice to move up.

[gomick]

Put him on a 2nd Suzuki in MotoGP 2012...

[chunder]

Naivety! He is sponsored by Repsol, he is only going to end u on one bike and that's a Honda, but Yamamoto is going to have to sack Pedrosa to get him on it!

Get him in his own team next year running an 800 or a CRT, get used to the tracks and the tricky stuff.

Has absolutely nothing to offer Moto2, the jury is still out for me on him as I think he does have a distinct size and weight advantage in Moto2. In 125 it is sort of held back a bit by the weight rules so he wasnt as dominant, in Moto2 the talent pool is por so he is made to look very good.

In the best of worlds Bradl, Luthi, Iannone, Smith, Corsi et al are not top drawer, not from what I have seen for many years anyway. The class has made exemplary 125 riders like Corsi, Simon and di Meglio look like chumps, it's all about the chassis and at mo, Suter Bitubo and Kalex are the best, FTR are up and down. So if you are not on a SUter you are nowhere, look at guys liem aergerter and Abraham theya re not awesome, put them on a Suter and hey ho
Doesnt explain why Kallio and a few are garbage, but thats their fault for being garbage!!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bestfit

Marquez is dominant because he is far and away the best rider in the field and yes I include Bradl in that.

Agreed. Not meaning to sound harsh to Chunder, as i'm sure what he tells us is true with regards to Marquez and his bike, but i tend to think that these riders (the few "chosen ones" i mean) get these types of bikes because they are head and shoulders above the other guys in the field.

I was having this conversation with my mate at work last night and you look at the likes of Bradley Smith who has a GP ride already secured for 2013 and i have to ask, what has he actually done to deserve that? But with the likes of Marquez, it's obvious.

[bestfit]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Marquez in MotoGP next year after all. It was announced last week that he would stay in Moto2 next year and move up in 2013. Word is that HRC wanted him in MotoGP next year but it was Repsol who wanted to him stay in Moto2. At the time of the announcement it was looking very probable that he would win the title which would have given Repsol The #1 plate in both MotoGP and Moto2. After being injured in FP1 at Sepang the possibility of him winning the title is now remote at best (he may not even be fit to ride at Valencia) so the double titles will now not happen for Repsol. A #1 plate and a #2 plate does not hold the same promotional weight.
In addition to this, the tragic events at Sepang have now left an additional factory Honda available for 2013. Dovizioso has now signed with Tech 3 Yamaha so he is out of the equation, LCR are reported to likely have factory supported equipment next year. Their first choice for rider has been Bautista but he is waiting to see Suzuki's plans. If Suzuki runs, Bautista has said he wants to stay there and DePuniet would likely get the LCR ride. Which still leaves Gresini now with an open slot due to the unfortunate loss of Marco.
My gut feeling (ie guess) is that Marquez will now move up to MotoGP, probably in the Gresini team and serve his rookie year on factory equipment but in a satellite team which is allowed under the rookie rules.
Marquez's ride at Phillip Island from rear of grid to podium was stunning and as I said in a previous post he is too good to just tread water in Moto2 for another year, especially now that Repsol's dream of double titles is all but gone. Time will tell.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by bestfit

I wouldn't be surprised to see Marquez in MotoGP next year after all. It was announced last week that he would stay in Moto2 next year and move up in 2013. Word is that HRC wanted him in MotoGP next year but it was Repsol who wanted to him stay in Moto2. At the time of the announcement it was looking very probable that he would win the title which would have given Repsol The #1 plate in both MotoGP and Moto2. After being injured in FP1 at Sepang the possibility of him winning the title is now remote at best (he may not even be fit to ride at Valencia) so the double titles will now not happen for Repsol. A #1 plate and a #2 plate does not hold the same promotional weight.
In addition to this, the tragic events at Sepang have now left an additional factory Honda available for 2013. Dovizioso has now signed with Tech 3 Yamaha so he is out of the equation, LCR are reported to likely have factory supported equipment next year. Their first choice for rider has been Bautista but he is waiting to see Suzuki's plans. If Suzuki runs, Bautista has said he wants to stay there and DePuniet would likely get the LCR ride. Which still leaves Gresini now with an open slot due to the unfortunate loss of Marco.
My gut feeling (ie guess) is that Marquez will now move up to MotoGP, probably in the Gresini team and serve his rookie year on factory equipment but in a satellite team which is allowed under the rookie rules.
Marquez's ride at Phillip Island from rear of grid to podium was stunning and as I said in a previous post he is too good to just tread water in Moto2 for another year, especially now that Repsol's dream of double titles is all but gone. Time will tell.

Yep, I wondered the same thing myself. I also wondered if that put Hopkins back in with a shout. As you said, time will tell.

[bestfit]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Yep, I wondered the same thing myself. I also wondered if that put Hopkins back in with a shout. As you said, time will tell.

I believe Hopper has now signed to ride WSBK next year.

[jhansen]

Taking it to the top again.

Well, we have well and truly moved along from the end of 2011. Ducati have now tested and finally raced a twin-spar aluminum frame. Their qualifying times were very similar to 2011, and their race time was similar to 2011. Even their Sepang testing times were not much different. Rossi is now looking more dejected than ever. Apparantly Rossi is even trying some of Hayden's settings now. Sadly, I can't see much changing. I wonder, will Ducati still be involved in 2013 if this year is like 2011? Will Phillip Morris still be happy to pay the bill?

[chunder]

To be honest I dont really know what the answer is.

A lot of people are starting to write Valentino off, but remember he was winning races and looking good on the Yamaha even after he recovered from the crash, maybe not as quick as Jorge back then, but still able to challenge.

Surely no-one really thinks he has dropped a second a lap? I dont, but he has proved to be utterly fallible if he cant sort the bike out.

And he and Jerry simply cannot sort that bike out, no matter what they do which i find rather amazing. I dont know what it is, and to be honest I really dont think they do either, not after over a year of messing around and pushing through extreme changes and different designs.

It occurs to me that eitehr Vale and Jerrys feedback is not being taken seriously or they are not giving the right feedback, as surely that many titles and wins measn you know how to set a bike up?

But they cant even get close, to be beaten by not only second string Yams but also Hondas is just not good enough, last year or this year.

I dont know the answer, but I wont write him off just yet. Give him a chance to get close enough and he can still cut it, I just dont wnat him to whimper out on a turd of a bike!

[EGG]

I think even if 2012 pans out like 2011, Ducati will stick it out into 2013. Not least because the USA is now their biggest market and they need that exposure (and Nicky).

I'd like to say their current results aren't any worse than pre-2007, where they hadn't shown an inclination to quit, but;
a) I have no stats to back that up, only foggy memories
b) I think those kind of discussions were the first 5 pages of this thread anyway

It does seem a long time without any success, but it's difficult to ignore Rossi & Burgess's previous achievements, which frankly makes the whole situation really confusing.

[wnut]

I cannot ride this Ducati admits Rossi.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98678

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by EGG

I'd like to say their current results aren't any worse than pre-2007, where they hadn't shown an inclination to quit, but;
a) I have no stats to back that up, only foggy memories
b) I think those kind of discussions were the first 5 pages of this thread anyway

They got a podium their first time out and won their sixth race in their debut year of 2003. That's not all bad! But they were a bit hit and miss between 2003 and 2005. Capirossi did well in 2006 and took third in the championship. He might have even been closer to the top if not for the nasty Catalunya Turn 1 crash.

I'd be curious to hear some of Capirossi's thoughts in comparing the 990 trellis frame of 2006 and the 2007 800c trellis frame, which he did not do so well on.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wnut

Did anybody see the interview with Burgess at Phillip Island, and I quote,
"We need direction from him (Rossi) and until we get it we are lost to be quite frank!"

Hi Chunder, this kind of covered it for me!

[wnut]

Gwyllion posted this on the Sportscar page:

"Valentino Rossi is driving a Ferrari at the Monza BES round. An Italian hero racing in an Italian car in Italy... that is bound to attract a large crowd."

Maybe he should just concentrate on his day job!

[chunder]

I dont think it is all simply down to Vale and his feedback. If thatw as the case then surely Burgess would not be so vital.

They are a team and hae worked fine befpre for over 10 years so I kind of think Jerry would know what kind of setup the bike needs, maybe Ducati simply cant provide that kind of bike?

They have tried everything it seems, and nothing works. So, the only way you can improve is to keep trying new things.

It seems that the basic design of the Ducati GP bikes is inherently flawed for Rossi's style, it seems intrinsically linked to Ducati, and noone else apart from Stoner has been able to ride it.

Bear in mind who has tried, Gibernau, Rossi, Hayden, Melandri, Checa, Barros, de Puniet, Capirossi. All potential race winers and some world champions. And the only rider capable of sporadic success is Stoner.

That says two things, Stoner is a special talent but also one that just rides on the limit rather than pursuing a setup he knows works.

And it says that the bike is flawed!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chunder

I dont think it is all simply down to Vale and his feedback. If thatw as the case then surely Burgess would not be so vital.

They are a team and hae worked fine befpre for over 10 years so I kind of think Jerry would know what kind of setup the bike needs, maybe Ducati simply cant provide that kind of bike?

They have tried everything it seems, and nothing works. So, the only way you can improve is to keep trying new things.

It seems that the basic design of the Ducati GP bikes is inherently flawed for Rossi's style, it seems intrinsically linked to Ducati, and noone else apart from Stoner has been able to ride it.

Bear in mind who has tried, Gibernau, Rossi, Hayden, Melandri, Checa, Barros, de Puniet, Capirossi. All potential race winers and some world champions. And the only rider capable of sporadic success is Stoner.

That says two things, Stoner is a special talent but also one that just rides on the limit rather than pursuing a setup he knows works.

And it says that the bike is flawed!

And it says that the bike is flawed!

... and just how special Casey Stoner is! (and Rossi said he wasn't really trying! )

Troy Bayliss went OK at Valencia 2006 !


The above quote from Burgess came verbatim from Phillip Island last year.
Burgess can only respond to what Rossi says the bike is doing.
If Rossi doesn't know what it is doing or what he wants nobody can help.

[chunder]

Bayliss only went OK coz he anmd his WSB team were allowed to make the changes he wanted, and they had a base setup for Valencia already fomr wsb and gp.

I refuse to believe that a guy who has won that many GP's has no idea how to set a bike up.

He AND the team simply cant put their finger on the issue. same as the RC45 always pushed the front, as did the NSR, they solved it eventually.

But it seems this issue is one Vale cant ride around as he could with issues on other bikes.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by chunder

It seems that the basic design of the Ducati GP bikes is inherently flawed for Rossi's style, it seems intrinsically linked to Ducati, and noone else apart from Stoner has been able to ride it.

Did Preziosi design the 990 also? In 2006 that was a fairly decent bike. Capirossi took 3rd and probably would have been closer to the title fight had he not been involved in the Catalunya Turn 1 incident that year. That bike had the 90 degree V and a steel trellis frame. The 800 came along and kept the steel frame and 90 degree V motor, but it was different somehow. The interesting thing to me is that Stoner wasn't all that keen on the trellis frame. He said no two trellis frames were the same.

[chunder]

I think Domenicali designed the 990 actually, maybe Prezio had an input, but I dont think he was the main man, that seemed to be Domenicali

[Truenorth]

Valle, the Motopope

http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...said-red-said/

What an incredible turn of events. The impassioned but washed up hero vs the intrasigent corporate entity! Either way, Yamahama wins.

[jhansen]

Kenny Robert's Jr. on the Rossi-Ducati situation.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Apr/120413-1046.htm

[wnut]

Originally Posted by mac

I once saw an interview with Chris V where he was asked who the bravest rider out there is... He said (and I'm paraphrasing) that the risks Casey took were insane - if you followed him around in practice you would just be in awe at some of the things he would do.

The above post gives credence to this quote.

.... and Ducati did not appreciate his efforts (gratitiude the shortest lived of all human emotions) and Rossi bated him saying he wasn't pushing.
Ducati and Rossi deserve each other!

Rossi has now proved that he benefitted from fortunate circumstance and couldn't develop a cold.
He has massive resources at his disposal and no results.

[chunder]

I guess a guy who has always ridden good bikes is likely to be branded a no hoper when he struggles with a bike.

But I prefer tio not brand Vale a no hoper, I think that tag is frankly disrespectful.

[wnut]

Rossi's development skills to the fore:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98702

Refer to Burgess comment above!

[chunder]

And your point is?

Is Vale supposed to be an engineer as well as a rider?

Should he be at the factory cutting metal? No He offers feedback and the team then makes changes. It is clear that eitehr his feedback is wrong or the team cant make the bike do what he wants.

I would suggest the latter as he has always been able to do this on other bikes.