Hans Question

[MGDavid]

>>>Race cars are engineered to have the maximum stiffness (you don't believe that roll cages are only designed to protect the driver do you?) while road cars are deliberately designed to crush over quite large distances
=== but this is part of DB's point I think - saloon-based race cars aren't a lot different from the road car. IIRC there's summat in the BB about cages NOT going beyond the passenger cell and onto suspension pickup points, so they only stiffen the cell, the surrounding structure crushability remains exactly the same as the road car.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

>>>Race cars are engineered to have the maximum stiffness (you don't believe that roll cages are only designed to protect the driver do you?) while road cars are deliberately designed to crush over quite large distances
=== but this is part of DB's point I think - saloon-based race cars aren't a lot different from the road car. IIRC there's summat in the BB about cages NOT going beyond the passenger cell and onto suspension pickup points, so they only stiffen the cell, the surrounding structure crushability remains exactly the same as the road car.

BB2005 says:

It is not permitted for safety cages to extend beyond the front upper or rear suspension mounting points.

Bracing this far forward is well into the crush zones.

Have a look at a BTCC, rally or DTM car for extreme examples. Even the minimum bracing bar between suspension turrets will have a significant effect on the "road car" crush zones. Think also of seam welding and local reinforcement designed to increase shell stiffness.

I'm not suggesting it is wrong, just that the environment is being altered. This is a good thing because drivers are forced to wear shoulder harnesses in good seats. The human body can take massive decelerations if properly restrained (and provided that the restraints in conjunction with proper seating position do not allow contact with e.g. steering wheel). So drivers should be wearing good harnesses, well installed, done up very tight and adopt a driving position which maximises the wheel to head distance.

Over the last three decades we have seen great reductions in driver injury due to improved design and systems. Further reductions will be increasingly difficult to achieve; the 80:20 rule applies to this as to most things.

Regards

Jim

[greenamex2]

I suppose that raises the question, are cars being made TOO STRONG/STIFF for our own good?

I have ordered my HANS device from TenTenths member M100MSA, and got about half an hours free advice, so far! The reason I chose M100MSA is he actually races and really seems to have done his research.

Report coming soon.

[Al Weyman]

IIRC there's summat in the BB about cages NOT going beyond the passenger cell and onto suspension pickup points,

I have seen plenty of roll cages going forward to the top of the McPhearson struts, are you saying these are not legal? They had better never look at the roll cage/space frame on the NASCAR style IROC race car I am renovating that cage goes from the front bumper to the rear!

[greenamex2]

I tried my Hans for size in the car today.

In order to stop the device slipping 'down' when your head is thrown forward you have to tighten the belts A LOT. It might be worth pointing out that I have abnormally strong neck muscles compared to most so many won't be able excerpt as much force as me, too many years of martial arts and riding sports motorcycles 25,000 miles a year!

I also noticed the lump at the back stopping me putting my head right back.

Head twisting was a little restricted but not by an amount that you would need in a race.

With EVERYTHING setup exactly as dictated in the FIA document (ie no I haven't done something wrong) it is NOT as comfortable as not having a Hans device.

HOWEVER, I would stop short of saying it was uncomfortable and I certainly don't thing it will effect me during our typical 15-20 minute sprints.

Roll on the first race.

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

Roll on the first race.

Lets hope you don't

[greenamex2]

Promised to report back on the HANS device in 'use'.

In short, it was fine.

Oddly, it was actually more comfortable when all strapped in than when worn 'loose'. I wore it for the whole duration of practice (15 minutes plus an elongated time in the collecting area).

Unfortunately my car decided to try and kill me in the race but for the little amount of time I lasted it was fine.

The restricted head turning ability was a little odd but not a problem.

It was a little more difficult getting strapped in but I am sure I will develop a routine in time.

The most notable effect was the slightly amount that my head could move backwards. Odd but again not a hinderance when driving.

I was able to test getting out the car in a hurry (ahem) and it wasn't a problem.


Anybody who is putting off buying one due to possible discomfort issues really shouldn't be concerned.

On the cost front I just have a standard 'non-HANS' seat and belts.


I shall be wearing one from now on, but still maintain my doubts about whether it will make any difference in 99% of accident types I may encounter in my car.

[rbs]

The BMW driver who went off at Post 7 at Mallory yesterday spoke very highly of the HANS device and was pleased he was wearing it.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by rbs

The BMW driver who went off at Post 7 at Mallory yesterday spoke very highly of the HANS device and was pleased he was wearing it.

I saw that car, it was a bit of mess!

[Red Baron]

Happy you got on well with it Denis

Regrads,
Rosie

[Larry J-Croft]

I bit the bullet and am now using one of these effective but ridiculously over priced safet aids. I have used it several times now in my F3, and frankly don't have a problem except for practice at Silverstone yesterday. After 2 laps the HANS came came out from under my right hand shoulder strap and once it was free there was no way I could get it back without going into the pits and getting some outside help. I had been in the pits earlier and had a hasty restrap in which might have been the reason - whatever, be warned - make sure that your straps are really tight!!!

[Eddy V]

It may not have been a belt problem, did you buy the right angled system for a single seater?
And yes, belts must be very tight.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Larry J-Croft

I bit the bullet and am now using one of these effective but ridiculously over priced safety aids.

I know what you mean, but it won't be over priced if it saves your neck.

There are some FIA guidelines about installation of the device here. They are a bit technical, but worth reading, particularly if you are wearing one in a cramped single-seater cockpit.

[Larry J-Croft]

Thanks, those instructions came with the device and yes it is the right one for my car with the right rake etc. I am quite prepared to admit it was probably me not getting strapped in correctly. The point I was trying to reinforce is that you must take care in strapping in as if it comes off in the race you can't put it back unaided, ie your race is over!!!

[strider]

Yes, I appreciate your point, but I am also pleased to hear that the installation was correct. I know that has been a concern to the FIA, in fact at one time they were saying that unless it could be fitted as insructed, then it would be safer not to use it at all.

[andy97]

Drove at Silverstone with my HANS (a Stand 21 version, with the side "flip ups) last week end and was nervous about trying it at first. However, once on it was not a problem and I felt comfortable in the car - I did not think about it again until I came to get out of the car.

As a matter of interest last week's Autosport had 2 second hand HANS for sale for about £375 each, although I can't find the advert now.

[Al Weyman]

I suppose that is one good thing about them, as they are a non wear item they will always have a secondhand value.

[johnw]

Bet that they'll eventually get "lifed" Al, and we'll all be expected to buy new ones

[Al Weyman]

Guaranteed! :-(

Sorry I never got chance to speak with you today John it was a bit of a hectic strange day.

[R59]

I had a scan through the thread, bit didn't see this bit mentioned:

From the FIA:

"From January 1, 2008, an FIA-approved head restraint (HANS) will be mandatory for all drivers and co-drivers in all FIA championships, trophies, cups and challenges. From January 1, 2009 it will be mandatory for entrants in all other events entered on the FIA International Sporting Calendar.
For cars, in which for technical reasons it is considered impracticable to fit the FIA approved head restraint, it will be possible to apply for a waiver to the FIA Safety Commission."

And no doubt - 2010, mandatory everywhere else (if not before!)

I found it on Stand21's site while looking for a new monkey suit.

Rob.

[dtype38]

Rob, did it give any reference as to who that quote was from and where it was published. Reason I ask is that quotes from the FIA can be anything from "set in stone" to "a proposal for discussion". The latter are often watered down or dropped, but I'm guessing that if thats the case here, Stand 21 might not want to mention it.

[R59]

It just says that it's a notification from the FIA.

One would assume that as Stand21 produce items that the FIA certify/homologate, there is a direct line of communication from Dijon to Paris and vice-versa.

Given it's a safety thing, I would assume that the FIA will cast it in stone, even if it' wrong, they like to err on the side of knee jerk.

Rob.

[R59]

Here's a link to the newsletter that has the details:

http://www.stand21.fr/nouveautes/new...numero9-2.html

It's about half way down. In the section about Standards.

Rob.

[dtype38]

OK thanks Rob, that checks out as it's actually taken from the World Motor Sport Council website and seems to be a definite decision... see http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...091205-01.html about half way down.

[R59]

That's that then! It'll be MSA regulation by the end of next week!!

Now to get a new monkey suit. Stand21 are favourite at the moment - more ponsy designs than anyone else......

Rob.