Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Motorsport History

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 23 Oct 2003, 14:55 (Ref:760868)   #76
Jeremy Jackson
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Coventry, UK
Posts: 652
Jeremy Jackson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks for the info, Kojima_KE007, the title doesn't ring any bells to me, but an Elva website gives it's ISBM as ISBN 4-544-04215-1. Don't know when it was published. Written by Shigemi Kanda, who's done some Lotus books. Michael?
Jeremy Jackson is offline  
Old 23 Oct 2003, 15:36 (Ref:760901)   #77
Michael Oliver
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
England
Witney, UK
Posts: 250
Michael Oliver should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
In one of the e-mails, I did query whether round 2 was on 4/6 or 6/4, when I mentioned those numbers on a photo of Takhara's Lola...Presume that was a event preview photo.

The book is news to me, though it would be useful to know what other good information it contains.
Yes, I remember that now

Although how it could be an event preview photo when the car doesn't appear to have even run by then, I'm not sure Maybe this is retrospective text added by the owner of the website I procured the photo from...

Thanx for info about the book. Sorry, the name doesn't ring a bell, but then quite a lot of people have written books about Lotus and I only have a relatively small proportion of those!

Michael
Michael Oliver is offline  
Old 23 Oct 2003, 15:52 (Ref:760921)   #78
Jeremy Jackson
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Coventry, UK
Posts: 652
Jeremy Jackson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Although how it could be an event preview photo when the car doesn't appear to have even run by then, I'm not sure
Er, yes, I see what you mean!
Jeremy Jackson is offline  
Old 27 Oct 2003, 17:13 (Ref:764754)   #79
Kojima_KE007
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 142
Kojima_KE007 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I now have the details of the book.

It is the Vol. 15 of Car Graphic Liblary series, "Sekai No Jidousha (Cars of the world)" Cooper/Lola/Elva, published by Nigensha, written by Shigemi Kanta.

This is exactly what it say on the book; Lola T280/3 Cosworth DFV, 30th March 1972, Colour: White, Noritake Takahara.

We think they just translated the delivery sheet of Lola cars.
Kojima_KE007 is offline  
Old 28 Oct 2003, 18:09 (Ref:765980)   #80
Alain HACHE
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
ORLEANS FRANCE
Posts: 92
Alain HACHE should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
KOJIMA
thanks again for infos , is it possible for you to find in the book the same infos for others T280 ? ( chassis number , date , colour and owner )
best regards
Alain
Alain HACHE is offline  
Old 30 Oct 2003, 19:54 (Ref:768405)   #81
Kojima_KE007
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 142
Kojima_KE007 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Alain

Unfortunately, the book has informations on Japanese related cars only.

Sorry I couldn't help you with other cars.

Best regards,
Kojima_KE007
Kojima_KE007 is offline  
Old 1 Nov 2003, 22:12 (Ref:770365)   #82
Alain HACHE
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
ORLEANS FRANCE
Posts: 92
Alain HACHE should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
thanks Kojima for answer
if you search infos about something in France I can help OK ?
AHACHE@wanadoo.fr
best regards
alain
Alain HACHE is offline  
Old 4 Nov 2003, 19:30 (Ref:773005)   #83
Alain HACHE
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
ORLEANS FRANCE
Posts: 92
Alain HACHE should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Whats happen in 1973 Spa 1000 Kms for the T282 Filipinetti
during practice ? was the car rebuilded ?
Alain HACHE is offline  
Old 4 Nov 2003, 20:02 (Ref:773032)   #84
Jeremy Jackson
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Coventry, UK
Posts: 652
Jeremy Jackson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Alain, the car was crashed heavily in practice at Spa after a left rear suspension falure. According to Autosport, the car would have been withdrawn anyway, after the death of George Filipinetti. The car was rebuilt in time for Le Mans
Jeremy Jackson is offline  
Old 8 Dec 2003, 21:56 (Ref:806992)   #85
Kojima_KE007
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 142
Kojima_KE007 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Which chassis is in Rosso Bianco in Germany? Is that chassis number 01 or 02, do we know exactly which chassis Bonnier was in when he was killed at Le Mans in 1972 and how many T280s were produced in total?

In my opinion, whichever chassis that Bonnier was "not" killed in would automatically become the chassis that is in Rosso Bianco.
Kojima_KE007 is offline  
Old 8 Dec 2003, 22:26 (Ref:807013)   #86
Jeremy Jackson
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Coventry, UK
Posts: 652
Jeremy Jackson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Kojima,

2 of those questions started this thread! The one photo I've seen of the Rosso Bianco T280 has neither original rear bodywork, nor is in "period" colours. From the photo I've seen, it may even be the ex-Mallock/Zaborowski car mentioned earlier (chassis 4?).

Since we've "sort of" concluded that there were at least 4 chassis earlier in the thread, I don't think we can say it is automatically anything. I can't read the information board next to the car on the photo I've got, but it doesn't seem to say too much!
Jeremy Jackson is offline  
Old 8 Dec 2003, 23:58 (Ref:807062)   #87
Kojima_KE007
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 142
Kojima_KE007 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Jeremy

Thanks for the reply and sorry to ask the same questions again, but as we looked into the history of Lola T280 and the more contacts we made, we became more confused.

Has Rosso Bianco ever confirmed or published which chassis their T280 is and does anybody have a picture of it?

There also is a person suspecting that chassis 04 is somewhere in Italy. Does anybody know anything about this at all?
Kojima_KE007 is offline  
Old 9 Dec 2003, 00:27 (Ref:807077)   #88
Jeremy Jackson
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Coventry, UK
Posts: 652
Jeremy Jackson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Kojima,

No need to apologize, it wasn't a criticism! We've ended up asking a lot of questions in this thread, so it's understandable. Michael did a summary on page 3 of this:

"So we have the following:

HU01 - Ecurie Bonnier (c. Jan 72)
HU02 - Ecurie Bonnier (c. Jan 72)
HU03 - Noritake Takahara (Mar 72)
HU04 - Carlos Gaspar (c. Jun 72)

HU01 goes to Rouveyran at end of 72 then ? (Willy Widar?) (Swedish guy Alain mentioned)
HU02 was written off Le Mans 72
HU03 stays in Japan and is still there
HU04 goes back to Ecurie Bonnier (hence ex-BIP references in race reports) then to Lord, then Zaborowski, Malcolm Johnstone, Brian & David Auger (hence reference to HU04), then Geoffrey Marsh/Marsh Plant and then ? (Rosso Bianco?)"


As far as I know, Rosso Bianco website doesn't detail the exhibits, and I've not seen any information about this car. There is a photo here:

http://www.shmoo.com/~bmc/photos/Car...m/dscf0070.jpg

, and it doesn't look in very good condition. However, it does have the additonal rear wing that the Marsh car had in 1983 (Not much to go on, I know!), and is painted light blue, and red down the centre. The board next to it says Lola T280 1972 2993cc V8... In smaller print it says "Only x of this racing car for Group 5 have been built". Unfortunately from the photo, I can't make out the number. The "x" could be a 5 or 9 (Which would include T282-4-6 variants, but we know HU10 exists), but the number looks different to the 5 in the "Group 5" lettering. If you can decipher from the photo, it may help...

Since we aren't 100% on chassis numbering, what can you tell us about 04 in Italy?

Last edited by Jeremy Jackson; 9 Dec 2003 at 00:28.
Jeremy Jackson is offline  
Old 9 Dec 2003, 09:55 (Ref:807325)   #89
Michael Oliver
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
England
Witney, UK
Posts: 250
Michael Oliver should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
Kojima,

No need to apologize, it wasn't a criticism! We've ended up asking a lot of questions in this thread, so it's understandable. Michael did a summary on page 3 of this:

"So we have the following:

HU01 - Ecurie Bonnier (c. Jan 72)
HU02 - Ecurie Bonnier (c. Jan 72)
HU03 - Noritake Takahara (Mar 72)
HU04 - Carlos Gaspar (c. Jun 72)

HU01 goes to Rouveyran at end of 72 then ? (Willy Widar?) (Swedish guy Alain mentioned)
HU02 was written off Le Mans 72
HU03 stays in Japan and is still there
HU04 goes back to Ecurie Bonnier (hence ex-BIP references in race reports) then to Lord, then Zaborowski, Malcolm Johnstone, Brian & David Auger (hence reference to HU04), then Geoffrey Marsh/Marsh Plant and then ? (Rosso Bianco?)"


As far as I know, Rosso Bianco website doesn't detail the exhibits, and I've not seen any information about this car. There is a photo here:

http://www.shmoo.com/~bmc/photos/Car...m/dscf0070.jpg

, and it doesn't look in very good condition. However, it does have the additonal rear wing that the Marsh car had in 1983 (Not much to go on, I know!), and is painted light blue, and red down the centre. The board next to it says Lola T280 1972 2993cc V8... In smaller print it says "Only x of this racing car for Group 5 have been built". Unfortunately from the photo, I can't make out the number. The "x" could be a 5 or 9 (Which would include T282-4-6 variants, but we know HU10 exists), but the number looks different to the 5 in the "Group 5" lettering. If you can decipher from the photo, it may help...

Since we aren't 100% on chassis numbering, what can you tell us about 04 in Italy?
Jeremy

Thanks for the photo of the car in Rosso Bianco. I'd never seen one and was beginning to wonder if a photo of the car actually existed. I was getting to the point where I was going to suggest organising a TNF/Ten-Tenths trip to the museum to get my own photo!!!

I agree with you about the rear wing being an indicator that it is the Marsh Plant car but in fact I'd say there were a lot of other similarities with that car:

1) The front splitter added to the nose (only car I've seen this feature on)
2) The additional centre rear view mirror
3) The enlarged air ducts on the side of the car
4) The absence of the filled-in bodywork at the rear of the car
5) The removed centre section of the cockpit between driver and passenger seat (done at the Interserie Silverstone 74, according to Jeremy Lord)

I know that none of these on their own would be very conclusive, but put together, with the rear wing, I think it is 'highly probable' that the car in Rosso Bianco is the ex-Marsh Plant one. Now we believe this to be 04, don't we? But it would be interesting to here what Kojima has to say about Italy...also given the fact that we believe it has some Italian history via Jolly Club.

The car that has been really bothering me is the Ulf Broman one - it just doesn't seem to fit in. It doesn't have the filled in rear bodywork (although I suppose whoever rebuilt it could have put a new rear body section on the car - maybe from a 2-litre?) You will notice that his car also has the centre section of the cockpit cut away but it appears to have been done even more further forward than the Lord/Marsh Plant car! I don't suppose you have any idea when that photo might have been taken, even roughly, as that might help?

However, I think I have just discovered one thing which identifies the Broman car as 01 - the roll-over bar/hoop. If you look at the photo of the Rouveyran car from Le Mans 73, you will see that the diagonal hoop that goes from bottom left to top right, starting from behind the driver's neck, is welded to the other diagonal tube running from top left to bottom right, rather than being joined to the main hoop as it is on all the other cars. You can see this again on the photo of Casoni's car in the Rothmans 50,000. On the Lord car the diagonal tube running from behind the driver meets the main hoop and is not welded to the other diagonal tube at all, while with the Takahara car it always had the original design of roll hoop, again with the diagonal tube being welded to the top tube.

I can't claim this is all my own work, as Alain Hache was hinting that there were subtle differences in the roll-over bar/hoop a long time ago earlier in this thread, I just didn't look hard enough then!

Anyway, I'm going to be bold and I've moved the Broman car from my 'Unknown' folder in my Lola T280 photos directory into HU01!!! Any thoughts?

Cheers

Michael
Michael Oliver is offline  
Old 9 Dec 2003, 10:29 (Ref:807347)   #90
Jeremy Jackson
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Coventry, UK
Posts: 652
Jeremy Jackson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Michael,

The Rosso Bianco photo was posted on the net in early December, the comment being that the guy had just come back from his "last visit to Germany", but I don't know when the photo was actually taken.

I noticed the splitter and the open-ended rear bodywork, so it seemed likely that it was the Marsh car. I issed the cockpit mirror details though!

However, I don't know when the Broman photo was taken. I assumed it was taken some time ago?

Now about this Italian car...
Jeremy Jackson is offline  
Old 9 Dec 2003, 11:57 (Ref:807390)   #91
Michael Oliver
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
England
Witney, UK
Posts: 250
Michael Oliver should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
Michael,

The Rosso Bianco photo was posted on the net in early December, the comment being that the guy had just come back from his "last visit to Germany", but I don't know when the photo was actually taken.

I noticed the splitter and the open-ended rear bodywork, so it seemed likely that it was the Marsh car. I issed the cockpit mirror details though!

However, I don't know when the Broman photo was taken. I assumed it was taken some time ago?

Now about this Italian car...
Indeed!

Did you see what I meant about the roll-hoop on the Broman car/Rouveyran car?

Cheers

Michael
Michael Oliver is offline  
Old 9 Dec 2003, 12:21 (Ref:807405)   #92
Jeremy Jackson
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Coventry, UK
Posts: 652
Jeremy Jackson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I do see the difference in roll hoops now, but I wouldn't have picked it up if you hadn't spelled it out for me!

Cheers

jeremy
Jeremy Jackson is offline  
Old 9 Dec 2003, 13:30 (Ref:807459)   #93
Michael Oliver
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
England
Witney, UK
Posts: 250
Michael Oliver should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
I do see the difference in roll hoops now, but I wouldn't have picked it up if you hadn't spelled it out for me!

Cheers

jeremy
Glad you could see it! It is quite difficult to explain but I certainly think it is unique. In my (albeit relatively limited) experience, roll-over hoops are the sort of thing that don't tend to get changed that often on a car - unless they have been damaged in an accident - and are far less likely to change than bodywork, wheels etc. So I think this is an interesting identifying feature.

Cheers

Michael
Michael Oliver is offline  
Old 9 Dec 2003, 22:44 (Ref:807873)   #94
Kojima_KE007
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 142
Kojima_KE007 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Having seen the picture of the T280 that is in Rosso Bianco (thanks very much for that Jeremy! ) and read your posts, it is highly likely that the one in Germany (Rosso Bianco) is the chassis number 04. (Does everyone agree with this?)

The other thing that is bothering me is, does anybody know which chassis Bonnier was killed in for sure?

Regarding the "chassis in Italy" comment that I made earlier, it came from a person who knows a thing or two about Lolas out of nowhere... so I can't really say anything on that. I will speak with that person again and see if I can get the details behind that comment.

Do any of you have any pictures of T280s? I think it would help if we could all see the same pictures. So I post a picture of the chassis 03 in action (sorry for the bad quality...) driven by Noritake Takahara (not that it helps much as we know that our associate owns it...). It is in white but was later painted into red as it was sponsored by Coca-Cola for the last few races of 1972 Grand Champion series.
Attached Thumbnails
mvc-026ss.jpg  
Kojima_KE007 is offline  
Old 10 Dec 2003, 13:33 (Ref:808304)   #95
Michael Oliver
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
England
Witney, UK
Posts: 250
Michael Oliver should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Kojima_KE007
Having seen the picture of the T280 that is in Rosso Bianco (thanks very much for that Jeremy! ) and read your posts, it is highly likely that the one in Germany (Rosso Bianco) is the chassis number 04. (Does everyone agree with this?)

The other thing that is bothering me is, does anybody know which chassis Bonnier was killed in for sure?

Regarding the "chassis in Italy" comment that I made earlier, it came from a person who knows a thing or two about Lolas out of nowhere... so I can't really say anything on that. I will speak with that person again and see if I can get the details behind that comment.

Do any of you have any pictures of T280s? I think it would help if we could all see the same pictures. So I post a picture of the chassis 03 in action (sorry for the bad quality...) driven by Noritake Takahara (not that it helps much as we know that our associate owns it...). It is in white but was later painted into red as it was sponsored by Coca-Cola for the last few races of 1972 Grand Champion series.
Kojima

I am pretty sure too now in my mind that the car in Rosso Bianco is 04, but I guess you can never be 100%!!!

Thanks for the photo. I have accumulated a lot of T280 pics (including 10 of the Takahara car) but don't think I am able to post them as I've never successfully managed to attach an image - don't you need a website or something to host them? I could email them to you if you send me a private message with your address.

I think it is generally accepted that JoBo died in HU02. I'm fairly sure that if you look at a photo of the other Ecurie Bonnier car (I have a picture of Larrousse in it during the race)it has the distinctive diagonal roll-hoop brace that I was talking about which identifies HU01 from the other chassis. HU03 was already in Japan by the time Le Mans took place, while HU04 was debuted by Carlos Gaspar the weekend after Le Mans, IIRC.

Like Jeremy, I'd be very interested to hear about the 'Italian connection'. Incidentally, I don't know if you have seen the photo of the Ulf Broman car (which I believe to be HU01, see my messages from yesterday) but this has a number of decals on it with Italian connections. For example, there is one for the Lauro Restaurant in Modena, a Ferrari sticker, plus several others such as USAG - (tools maybe?), AGB and an unknown logo of a red flag with an 'S' on it, perhaps suggesting that the owner prior to Broman was an Italian or raced the car in Italy.

I think it is almost certain that an Italian did drive HU01 (Ciro Nappi, 1978 Monza 1,000kms, DNQ) but I understand that he was from Naples so I don't know why he would be carrying sponsorship from people around the Modena area but who knows! According to my best estimates, this car was then sold to Pascal Pessiot, who I believe was French and entered the car (reportedly with a Chev engine) for the 1981 Brands Hatch 1,000kms but it did not appear.

Hope this helps but await anything you can dig up with interest!

Michael
Michael Oliver is offline  
Old 12 Dec 2003, 12:37 (Ref:810094)   #96
Nordic
Veteran
 
Nordic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
West Sussex
Posts: 2,133
Nordic should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Lola

There is a 280 for sale on the Lola Cars heritage site, no chassis number or much detail.
Nordic is offline  
Old 12 Dec 2003, 17:22 (Ref:810402)   #97
Alain HACHE
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
ORLEANS FRANCE
Posts: 92
Alain HACHE should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I meet last year the owner of this T280 in the Le Mans
Classic event and he telled me that its Chassis number 5 !
I dont know if thats serious and the car on the picture look like a T282 284 or 286 .... For me the chassis 5
( HU 05 ? ) is the T280/2 winner of the Paris 1000 kms 1972
This new car arrived by Bonnier team in September 1972 when
Marianne Bonnier would continue the team (dixit G Larousse)
Alain HACHE is offline  
Old 12 Dec 2003, 21:32 (Ref:810557)   #98
Michael Oliver
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
England
Witney, UK
Posts: 250
Michael Oliver should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Alain HACHE
I meet last year the owner of this T280 in the Le Mans
Classic event and he telled me that its Chassis number 5 !
I dont know if thats serious and the car on the picture look like a T282 284 or 286 .... For me the chassis 5
( HU 05 ? ) is the T280/2 winner of the Paris 1000 kms 1972
This new car arrived by Bonnier team in September 1972 when
Marianne Bonnier would continue the team (dixit G Larousse)
Hi Alain

I guess that would make sense, if it was chassis 5. I know that it was reported as a write-off after its Kyalami practice crash but in those days it would have to be pretty badly damaged for them to throw the whole car away, so I guess it was rebuilt at some point...

Therefore, to me, chassis 5 would be a T282, not a T280, although I know they were often referred to as T280/2s, weren't they?
Michael Oliver is offline  
Old 12 Dec 2003, 22:04 (Ref:810581)   #99
Jeremy Jackson
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Coventry, UK
Posts: 652
Jeremy Jackson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Alain, Michael,

Seems reasonable to me. The Paris car had the original T280 body, and ran in Ecurie Bonnier's colours, so whether it was called a T282 or T280/2 I'm not sure. Autosport described it as the prototype T282, but since we believe the chassis were numbered sequentially in the T280/2/4/6 series, so I guess it's OK either way...
Jeremy Jackson is offline  
Old 4 Jan 2004, 12:12 (Ref:827312)   #100
Alain HACHE
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
ORLEANS FRANCE
Posts: 92
Alain HACHE should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
first T280 race was Buenos aires 1000 kms , french magasine SPORT AUTO telled in n° 121 that R Wissel
had run second chrono behind R Peterson during practice
(Ferrari team agree this chrono )but race organization
refused and give to the Lola 5th place on start grid . During the race Wissel got black flag and must stop but that was again organization's mistake ... Wissel was back on the track but loosed 15 minutes and finished only 7th
This kind of events seem difficult to believe so can somebody confirm ?
Alain HACHE is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lola T280 Alain HACHE The Chassis History Archive 405 17 Oct 2010 16:31
Lola T 97/30 ss_collins The Chassis History Archive 2 26 Dec 2007 15:25
Lola Osella Sportscar & GT Racing 14 25 Aug 2002 12:37
Lola cv2000 National & International Single Seaters 12 18 Jun 2002 05:36


All times are GMT. The time now is 15:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.