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18 Dec 2013, 19:52 (Ref:3345616) | #51 | ||
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Being diplomatic I won't comment on the way this has been handled; let's just say I think it's the wrong decision!
However, here's something KayBee's spotted: Both the single & double waved yellows may be supplemented or replaced by flashing yellow lights. So, if the yellow flags have been replaced by lights, how do you know if the flashing yellow is a "single" or a "double"? |
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18 Dec 2013, 20:01 (Ref:3345621) | #52 | |||
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Why is when there is a changed, a lot of people goes on about the negative ? Last edited by gachjoel; 18 Dec 2013 at 20:06. Reason: additional text |
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18 Dec 2013, 20:07 (Ref:3345626) | #53 | |||
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Jim (MSA Lead Trainer) |
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18 Dec 2013, 20:28 (Ref:3345635) | #54 | |||
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Last edited by Chigley; 18 Dec 2013 at 20:29. Reason: Sintax |
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Ian Chalmers, Maker of circuit flags. |
18 Dec 2013, 20:35 (Ref:3345638) | #55 | ||
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18 Dec 2013, 20:37 (Ref:3345639) | #56 | ||
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18 Dec 2013, 20:45 (Ref:3345646) | #57 | ||
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The msa really are idiots of the highest order....how the hell do they think this is going to work when you have one flaggie on post, trying to wave 2 yellow flags, an oil flag and a white flag....as usual the msa have made an il informed decision, not listened to the people involved and gone ahead with it anyway.....what utter pricks
I might as well shove a broom up my arse and pee on the cars instead of using a fire extinguisher Maybe the guys who dream up these idiotic ideas should come and spend some days on the bank at club meetings doing what we do Last edited by ascarracinguk; 18 Dec 2013 at 20:56. |
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18 Dec 2013, 20:55 (Ref:3345655) | #58 | ||
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18 Dec 2013, 20:58 (Ref:3345657) | #59 | |
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18 Dec 2013, 21:02 (Ref:3345659) | #60 | ||
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Using the example of the lights used for F1 events (which as far as I know aren't used for any other UK event...), double yellows have either been denoted by a light flashing at a faster rate than the norm or the light panel dividing itself into two so that as one part of the light is yellow the other half is switched off and vice versa.
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18 Dec 2013, 21:48 (Ref:3345669) | #61 | |||
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Has anyone, anywhere, consulted a flag marshal about this? Or a proper trainer. I get the feeling this was decided by a couple of blazers with G 'n Ts in their hands telling themselves what jolly good fellows those marshal-chappies are (not that I'd have one to dinner, eh what!). |
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18 Dec 2013, 22:14 (Ref:3345680) | #62 | ||
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18 Dec 2013, 22:31 (Ref:3345688) | #63 | ||
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Guys, whilst I share your frustrations at the changes, the simple fact is that they have been introduced and we have to make them work. So can we turn this around and share good practice and any tips that we can adopt.
I use my own flags which are light weight. I can wave two with one hand (with difficulty). However, I wouldn't want to use circuit flags, which are generally heavier, and with longer poles. So any ideas in using them in an effective way? I've heard of flaggies in the States tying two flags together. How does that work? Have any of our American colleagues or travelling UK marshals experience of this? Criticising the MSA won't achieve anything. Working together to adopt good technique will. So let's help each other do the best job we can. |
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18 Dec 2013, 22:34 (Ref:3345690) | #64 | ||
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Yes. A number of us wrote in (you had to find the link to do so and had to have heard about it via somewhere like this, of course).
Don't get the impression anyone read the submissions and I'm not aware of anyone getting a reply to say why they were ignored. Further comment: You can convey a lot of information by how you wave your yellow, from a gentle wave to a brisk, urgent wave. DWY pretty much force a single rhythm so you're giving less information with more flags. And if (when) one of them gets wrapped around the stick you have to put the other one down to untangle it - how is the previous post going to judge that? Especially somewhere like Copse when you're 400 yards apart. On your own you'll often have the blue in your hand and a yellow nearby. Now you've got to have two yellows nearby and the green. Most posts are simply not equipped properly for this and on a wet windy day you're constantly collecting them anyway. Seriously considering giving flags a miss now, except at FIA. And who'd have thought the day would come when FIA flags made more sense than local regs? Someone from the MSA responsible for this is going to come and join us on the flag points early next year, aren't they? |
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18 Dec 2013, 23:10 (Ref:3345708) | #65 | ||
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@ Paul. The US two flags is their "Full course double yellow" . It is 2 flags held (or tied) stick to stick and displayed horizontally stationary at all posts to indicate a full course condition (with or without safety car).
The "danger flag" is still a single waved yellow. IMSA and IndyCar use the UK system as was until yesterday with preceding standing yellow and following green, US club racing normally uses just the one yellow with no preceding or following flag. |
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18 Dec 2013, 23:25 (Ref:3345714) | #66 | |
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If you have to use two flags at one time and you are flagging alone when you have an incident that needs to be reported.
My suggestion is that a whole new set of procedures will need to be developed. However race control is going to have to compromise on what information they get. My suggestion is that written reports will have to wait but first the incident needs to be called in. To do this while double flagging then each post will need a radio with headset that can be operated while holding the flags (i.e. the mike button can be held in your hand while flagging). I don't whether there is anything out there that can do that but.... Race control will need to be able to write down a verbal report to paper that can be signed later. Also new radio messages might be developed that are very brief so that the flagger can concentrate on giving deploying the flags. Another suggestion is that senior flaggers might be given the authority to deploy a red flag without going through race control (very unlikely). The other way that is not always possible is that an adjoining post might be able to do the communication to race control, but they may not always see the incident properly depending on location. I do not agree with the use of double waved flags where there are only one flagger per post as it will stretch the system leading to problems when something big happens. I would also put in a request to the MSA for guidence on how to carry out all the functions required with one person per post and even ask those that brought out the regulation to do it themselves. |
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18 Dec 2013, 23:43 (Ref:3345723) | #67 | |||
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Whilst I don't agree with the new changes (and submitted a consultation response to the MSA outlining my reservations of the new system); I would agree with the views of Paul Newns and that despite its inherent drawbacks, the new system needs to be made to work (somehow). |
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19 Dec 2013, 01:27 (Ref:3345739) | #68 | ||||
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19 Dec 2013, 02:24 (Ref:3345756) | #69 | ||
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I would like to know who are the MSA knuckle heads and which MSA committee can't read or listen. Consultation my arse, looks good, reads good, means absolutely FA.
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Ian Chalmers, Maker of circuit flags. |
19 Dec 2013, 07:50 (Ref:3345822) | #70 | ||
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As someone said earlier if there is one person on post they are unable to carry out their duty's simple's
The manning levels are not safe so we all go home early Not my fault mate go and talk to the MSA If it goes wrong and ends up in court, I dont want to be the one that is blamed for not giving the right signal. |
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19 Dec 2013, 09:15 (Ref:3345838) | #71 | ||||
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Probably not, but at least it leaves a record that those who understand how it really works at the coal face are concerned. As another poster pointed out - do you want to have to explain in court why the 'correct ' flag signals where not shown. Quote:
I certainly do not envy you the task of trying to 'sell' this idea to a room full of flag marshals at the next training day. |
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19 Dec 2013, 09:26 (Ref:3345842) | #72 | ||
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I wonder if the clubs are allowed to write their own rules as I vaguely remember they did in original Battenberg days saying something like "Ignore the Blue Book and amendments, at our meetings we do it the good old-fashioned way" ?
That would be fun and would really make it worth listening carefully to the morning briefings . Steve |
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19 Dec 2013, 09:32 (Ref:3345844) | #73 | |
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To me the important thing is to get the flag(s) out and then communicate with race control by the simplest means possible. A stand can be provided for the safety car board.
The other thing is for lone flaggers is to make their situation known to the COC prior to going out on circuit so that they are aware that there will be compromises and will require back up at times. |
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19 Dec 2013, 13:35 (Ref:3345904) | #74 | ||
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19 Dec 2013, 14:00 (Ref:3345916) | #75 | |||
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When I attend training in 2014 I will be asking for a clear statement in writing from the MSA as to what their interpretation of reasonable care would be for a single-manned flag point, or even worse a single-manned combined Post Chief and flag point. I would like the MSA, not me, to make the decision of what has priority: double waved yellows, reporting by phone / radio, noting things down for the major incident report such as car positions before the incident etc. Single-manned flag points are a fact of life going forward - as are these new rules. If (when) it proves impossible to correctly apply the new rules and also keep the CoC informed in real-time, or to accurately complete any written reports later; then I would like there to be written guidance from the MSA on what procedure to adopt. They can then be responsible for showing the Coroner that this procedure was "reasonable". I don't even want to think of the added complications of reporting 1 wheel off as well as a single-manned Post Chief / Flagger! |
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