Bad Fuel... (merged)

[Suze]

I'm not a fuel specialist but this certainly was the case less than a year ago when I last discussed it - suggest for more info you speak to the fuel / fuel cell people themselves - ATL certainly had comments to make on it. I can't link to it as it was all in verbal / private discussions but the below also seems to say similar.

From the old thread I posted a link to earlier (late 2005) there were a couple of posts here which may be relevant from racing59.

Originally Posted by racing59

Tesco were working with Greenergy who supply Bioethanol-blend fuels with up to 5% Bioethanol. And Bioethanol can boost the octane rating of the fuel.

One word of caution. If you leave it to stand, the ethanol separates and drops to the bottom of the tank. Ethanol eats conventional fuel lines, o-ring seals, etc.. See ATL's site for advice when using such fuels in their fuel cells.

.....I'd be interested to see the BS/EN numbers for the fuel first before using it. And from past experience with Tesco's petrol, I think I'll leave it in their tanks, and let the Barryboys use it in the 1.2 Clio's with big wheels and big subwoofers.

And a later post from the same thread

Originally Posted by racing59

Obviously, the more ethanol is in the blend, the lower the overall calorific value of that blend.

As you increase the ethanol content, the octane number rises.

As I understand the way it happens.. they buy basic 95RON unleaded "gasoline" on the spot market. You then apply additives to make up the type of fuel that you want, octane enhancers (used to be Toluene, Benzine, these days it can be ethanol), lead, lead substitute, cleaning additives, etc...

I've seen them at the fuel depots, with shell tankers filling up behind tesco ones, etc... they pull out a 5 gallon can of additives, pour that into the tank, and then fill (or vice versa).

There are some sites on the internurd that explain the process. Too much to post here.

[Peter Mallett]

But none of that affects a catalyser does it?

Also why are Ford and VW cars not affected?

[Suze]

As far as I know, no. If you go back to the post of mine which you quoted, you'll see it's in response to a post by falcemob saying there's no difference between the different retailer's petrol as they all come from the same place - not in response to "so what's caused these problems then?" and nowhere have I said the 10% ethanol is what's causing the problems with the oxygen sensors.

[Peter Mallett]

Fair comment. I realised you were responding to Tim and as I pointed out Buncefield is one location where all (and that includes Shell Tesco etc.) collect their fuel. I'm sure the guys at ATL have a point but unless ethylyne/ethanol is a silicon(e) the relevance escapes me.

I would like to know why Ford and VW are unaffected though.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I would like to know why Ford and VW are unaffected though.

Perhaps the sensors that Ford and VW use are of a different make to some other manufacturers sensors and unafected by whatever is causing the problem.

The RAC said the problem seemed to be particularly affecting the oxygen sensors in vehicles made by Vauxhall, Peugeot, Citroen and Mercedes.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Perhaps the sensors that Ford and VW use are of a different make to some other manufacturers sensors and unafected by whatever is causing the problem.

I believe there are two different technologies used in lambda sensors, only one of which is affected by this problem.

[Tim Falce]

There is an interesting article here that confirms what you say Dave

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by that article Falce mentioned

A lambda sensor's normal life span is 30,000 to 50,000 miles. But the sensor may fail prematurely if it becomes clogged with carbon, or is contaminated by lead from leaded petrol or silicone from an antifreeze leak or from silicone sealer.

There it would seem is the problem.

In cold countries, like here in Russia you get winter fuel, it has an element of anti freeze (I know not what the actual element is) and you get it in Germany too (Ford/VW but don't point me at Merc).

So could it be an anti freeze element that has caused this problem?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by falcemob

There is an interesting article here that confirms what you say Dave

Thanks - that explains why it only seems to affect certain makes of car.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

So could it be an anti freeze element that has caused this problem?

Can't find the it now but over the weekend there was a newspaper report on the probable cause. Silicon is normally added to diesel as an anti-foaming agent. The suggestion was that someone put it into the wrong tank.

Seems to have been traced back to tanks at West Thurrock shared by Harvest Energy and Greenergy. Harvest Energy supply Asda, Greenergy supply Tesco and Morrison

[manfred]

Hi. I'm Manfred and a new member. I would like state that I had the same symptoms in my Volvo 960 (3L, 6Cyl. DOHC, 204HP) from Shell V-Power in November, i.e. vibration, juddering, loss of of power, ripping off the exhaust mountings and making the catalyser rattle just after warming up. It took a long time to find and a OBDII tester to confirm that the car had no problems as such, only the fuel. Car recovered very quickly after pumping the fuel out (60+ litres). Shell maintains there is nothing wrong with their new (smelly) V-Power (99 octane) at the station where I got mine, which surely must mean that the problem could occur anywhere. They refuse to test my pertrol, saying they are confident that it is o.k., even when I phoned after the Tesco debacle had hit the headlines. Never had any problems with Optimax (98 octane), but I am changing now to the dearer BP Ultimate. Caveat emptor! Anybody any similar experiences with new V-Power?

[Cryos]

Ive used V-Power in high performance engines and it works a treat, however i did notice in some bog standard cars that it didnt run the may west.

In our 97 Mk3 GTi running VPower seems to make it run better and last longer, same with the Mk4 we have.