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14 Dec 2006, 18:41 (Ref:1790759) | #51 | ||||
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14 Dec 2006, 18:54 (Ref:1790778) | #52 | ||||
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(By the way, you mean biennial - biannual means twice in a year!) Quote:
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Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
14 Dec 2006, 19:50 (Ref:1790810) | #53 | |||
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14 Dec 2006, 20:09 (Ref:1790823) | #54 | |||
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The problem is that now at some meetings it is necessary for someone to stand in as flag and therefore to include a requirement for some training within the grading scheme is quite important. |
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14 Dec 2006, 22:54 (Ref:1790959) | #55 | |||
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Regards Jim |
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14 Dec 2006, 23:08 (Ref:1790971) | #56 | ||
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Ok, I've thought some more about this, and got even more confused, so here goes with the start of the questions.
Will I still be able to volunteer for the duty I want to do? What I want to do depends on the venue and the categories racing, and I like to mix them up for variety. It is a hobby after all. Since the two duties don't officially exist, then what will the volunteering forms say? And since I'll dress differently or carry different equipment according to what I'm doing, I really want to know before I set out. I spend a little under half my season at speed events, and despite the fact that they run under different grading schemes, I've always considered that an incident marshal (course/fire/incident/incident officer) is doing the same job at both types of event - though acknowledging that circuit handling requires a different outlook because the aims are not quite the same - the skills are 90% transferable at least. So I tend to go to the hillclimb training sessions because it's more convenient. But that, apparently, won't cover me for the training sessions needed to maintain my circuit grade. The scheme talks about Post Chief training sessions for speed events. Hmm, I wonder if someone's going to run one, then. I wonder if the MSA, clueless about marshalling circuits, even knows what the difference is when operating at a hill climb or sprint. That's just for starters. I'm sure there's many more. |
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15 Dec 2006, 11:42 (Ref:1791317) | #57 | ||||
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DDMC Rescue Crew, Post Chief & Flag Marshal |
15 Dec 2006, 22:22 (Ref:1791794) | #58 | ||
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This is just 'another change for change sake'...if it ain't broke why fit it ...unless of course you just want to make a name for yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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15 Dec 2006, 23:20 (Ref:1791825) | #59 | ||
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I don't know about anyone else, but I actually felt achievement in attaining
my grades in the old system. Looking at the changes, i feel it's time to say thank you and goodbye. |
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15 Dec 2006, 23:49 (Ref:1791832) | #60 | |
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I've just spent quite a while reading through the document at the beginning of the thread and the subsequent posts.
I have little marshalling experience and have one training day under my belt...so far. The thing I find confusing is the difference between speed and circuit marshals, which I believe has always been the case (please correct me if wrong as still pretty new to all of this!). To me they are (reasonably) similar but wanting to compete as well as marshal in speed events in particular means the number of "required" days marshalling could prove difficult to meet. Rally marshalling is something I only do once or twice a year, mainly when Sevenoaks MC are running an event / stage etc, so though if free I would like to attend a training day in the new year the reality of becoming a fully "recognised" non-trainee rally marshal is fairly unlikely the way I see things. I don't have experience of the "old" system but I like to have goals both at work and at home to work towards and hope that when I do attain my grade I feel the acheivement to go with it although others here seem a little apprehensive. I guess it's really a case of time will tell! Maybe I'll have a slightly different perspective though just being a trainee, and the experience I have will I think have little definition on how I find things with this new system as my current experience is very limited....maybe something to report back this time next year! |
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17 Dec 2006, 18:05 (Ref:1792931) | #61 | ||||
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For the first time Speed (and Kart) marshals will be graded/registerd by the MSA. (Trainees will also be on the Register, again for the first time.) We worked hard to get this idea across and the MSA have accepted our arguments once they had been costed and the implications for the department which deals with the register (for it also does licences) had been taken on board. We will probably need to iron out some bugs in the system but I hope this does not mean that there are any fundamental flaws. Tell us in a year's time. Regards Jim |
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17 Dec 2006, 18:12 (Ref:1792934) | #62 | |||
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You may not think that change was necessary but lots of marshals did and that's why they kept raising issues. The environment in which we are working is changing and we need to keep up, not get left behind. Regards Jim Last edited by JimW; 17 Dec 2006 at 18:14. |
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17 Dec 2006, 22:58 (Ref:1793151) | #63 | ||
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Without wishing to sound like I'm creeping, knowing you were involved in planning it gives me a lot more confidence in it's potential success. I can't say I've got the hang of where it's going, but if it's been formulated by experienced, knowledgeable and emminently sensible people then I'm prepared to wait and see how it evolves in practice. There have been a number of highly curious MSA initiatives over time, so it's understandable that we're looking on this with suspicion. May I suggest a more thorough explanation of how it will work in practice (I haven't sussed the theory from the diagrams and explanations work), perhaps with 'new marshal A joins here and will do this' type scenarios?
Or in my case, 'fairly cynical old hand, several disciplines and duties on a regular basis, finally bothered to grade for flags and having got half way through finds it doesn't seem to exist, is here (big arrow) and will end up here (another arrow) and should either a) pursue the grade with haste or b) give up because he's going to get it [never going to get it?] anyway'! |
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17 Dec 2006, 23:53 (Ref:1793171) | #64 | ||
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how many Chief Marshals, Observers, I/O's etc actually take any notice of one's grading? What if one doesn't wear ones badges? The F1 GP in the Uk aside, I have NEVER found a Circuit grade to make the slightest difference as to what duties have been assigned to me or any others around me. "Rescue" does not count, before anyone jumps in, as this is an MSA Licensed position (quite rightly) and does not come under "Marshal" grading. (even though many Rescue members will still 'marshal' whilst on a unit). Ever since I first started marshalling (over 20 yrs ago now) the number of times I have actually been asked as to "what-grade-am-I" could be counted on less digits than I now have. But !!!!!!!! I have been asked untold times.............. "how many days have you done?" so which one is the most relevant? which leads to the next question........ (for all you experienced Observers, I/O's, Trainers or Buddys)...... which would you prefer? 1) a grading card holding marshal with the minimum required days + training sessions........ or 2) an attendance card with over 50 days per year but not enough training days? or would it make any difference at all? I am not in any way trying to undermine the value of training days or the efforts put in by those that run them. I still attend them and learn something everytime. My point is......(as stated before but not answered).... Does a grade make a Marshal? or...... why do we need grades if attendance could be enough???? This is my own opinion having attained nearly all the grades I ever wanted but having been refused the one that others thought I deserved. And then I get asked to do the "Duty",for which I have no grade, by people I helped to train!! Go figure!! |
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18 Dec 2006, 10:46 (Ref:1793381) | #65 | |||||
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As my old boss used to say: 'some people have 25 years' experience; others have one year's experience repeated 25 times'. |
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18 Dec 2006, 10:56 (Ref:1793384) | #66 | |||
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However, that don't make it right....for every 10 times it hasn't mattered to the "seniors", the times I was asked by someone who really knows their stuff makes up for it a thousandfold over. We should always be striving for the pinnacle (or is that peenuckle?? ).....if the people you are presented with at a particular meeting "just don't get it" then our responsibility as volunteer Marshals is to try and cooperatively educate and work as a team (sounds good...dun it ) |
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19 Dec 2006, 13:08 (Ref:1794648) | #67 | ||
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So when does this start, then?
In 2007, do attendence signatures count towards upgrading, or do we still need XO-signed upgrade sigs? |
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19 Dec 2006, 13:44 (Ref:1794675) | #68 | ||
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I guess what it comes down to is: Do I still need to collect the remaining 4 signatures for the flag grade or not? If not, do I now need to collect attendance signatures, because I've never bothered before. If they're now important, I will do.
At speed events, as a black badge (not X), if someone asks me for a signature, do I sign it because I couldn't before. Armed with those answers, I'm happy to go with the flow and see where this takes us. |
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20 Dec 2006, 00:14 (Ref:1795303) | #69 | ||
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I'm not happy to go with the flow and see where it takes us.
So, I would like to thank everyone who has marshalled at events when I've been chief marshal, and to everyone I've been on post with over the years. Good bye and stay safe Pete |
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20 Dec 2006, 09:29 (Ref:1795546) | #70 | ||
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Whats in a name?
Seems to me at the end of all this the only thing that's going to change is the job title. Once on post I guess things will be much the same, as most people that have a grade will have worked with each other at some time. So that just leaves new marshals/trainees who normally turn up for their first events with some one with a grade anyway. We only need one title ..................... TEAM! |
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20 Dec 2006, 09:54 (Ref:1795573) | #71 | ||
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That's a very good point.
Peter, it would be a sad occasion if this were the catalyst for you giving up marshalling. I sincerely hope you will take time over Christmas to reconsider your decision. |
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20 Dec 2006, 16:16 (Ref:1795963) | #72 | ||
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I have spoke to at least 1 trainee this year that wanted to give up because he was asked to do flagging, and didn't want to do it. And there is always discussion on here after a GP about the standard of flag signals, we have the best flaggies in the world because we don't put trainee's onto flags. |
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20 Dec 2006, 16:32 (Ref:1795970) | #73 | ||
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Also its not just the name change, if it was that then I don't think people would be so vocal.
The problem I see is with the change from signatures for actually handling an incident to just getting one for turning up. Ok you have to have an assessment, but i'm sure there are people that would get through the assessment by the skin of thier teeth, that shouldn't be graded at that point. Yes I admit that this can happen with the current system with people rushing their grading, but I think it would happen more with the new system. |
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20 Dec 2006, 16:46 (Ref:1795993) | #74 | ||
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I sometimes feel that the grading system attracts too much attention, but that's not to say it's not important.
I personally haven't collected any signatures for about 10 years, but as I work within an established team I have no aspirations (at the moment) to move further up the ladder. As it's just a fun hobby, I'm not concerned about whether I'm regarded as "experienced" or not by the grading system. Those who need to know something about me already know what experience (or lack of) I have. However, if you have aspirations to become an Observer, then this new system doesn't seem too bad to me (a balance of broad experience, assessment and training). There has to be a formal system that rates individuals, and for those that are interested in moving up the tree, I can't see what the problem is. (But you can enjoy motorsport without worrying about signatures.) Last edited by Dan Friel; 20 Dec 2006 at 16:51. |
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20 Dec 2006, 17:10 (Ref:1796024) | #75 | |
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I am after signatures - but only to make the step from trainee to course marshal / [insert correct name here as may have it wrong I fear!] but after that it's a case of seeing how it goes and what I want to do and if I enjoy it!
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