DSP VS Audi R8

[Aysedasi]

Now you're winding me up, mon ami!!

[Fab]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Now you're winding me up, mon ami!!

That was the target ! No, no I'm kidding... I wanted to divert the thread...

Honestly (IMHO !!! I'll say In My Humble Opinion !!!), I can't wait to see a new standard at LM...

Let's see : is there some kind of "cheap" Audi (I mean, running well for much less money)... not so far ! But we've got great race cars at LM for pennyless teams, as WR, or even (in a way) Courage or Pescarolo... I'm not considering here the result they had recently...

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Fab
is there a sporstcar to be compared to the R8 Audi ?

Porsche 936!

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Porsche 936!

This could be a long thread Cy, but mostly with Porsche numbers, I expect,

917, 956, 962...........

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
917,

roof (the Le Mans one anyway )

956,

roof

962...........

roof
We are talking Spiders here.

The 936 is probably the most successful Porsche prototype in relation to development time and budget. Had it seen as much racing in its whole career as the R8 has already seen, it would today be known as the all time best sportscar.
Plus, it had the biggest air scoop of them all

[Aysedasi]

Whoops - forgot about that.

But then you know how much I prefer cars with lids, Cy.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Whoops - forgot about that.

But then you know how much I prefer cars with lids, Cy.

You pro-DSP then?

[Aysedasi]

Now then Cy, I think you're getting just a touch too pedantic for your own good, matey! Just because I like some cars with lids, it doesn't mean I'm totally blinded by full weather protection!

[cybersdorf]

picky picky picky
Now, how about this baby here -

No-nonsense, sturdy roof construction, tried & proven aero, this one will not fly, ever! And boy those air intakes... - looks like it has side-mounted radiators, though. And the best thing about it, it doesn't take many to fill a grid.
Take the body off, and it will look almost like an R&S Mk.III; with the body on, it looks almost exactly like a Porsche Cayenne.

[Aysedasi]

But those wings........!!!

[BobN]

Not to worry, they are spec wings. Everyone will have equal prayer power.

Bob

[Aysedasi]

Hallelujah!

[Fab]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Now, how about this baby here -

How about the windshield ? Let's talk about aerodynamical choices here... sorry, can't believe it'll make it. Maybe for the Euroseries ?

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Fab
sorry, can't believe it'll make it.

Oh but you need to believe!
Heck, if I have the choice between this and Rael... - where's my rosary?

[C_g]

Isn't the 936 just a 917 without a roof and with a turbo motor?

[cybersdorf]

Isn't a Fabcar DSP just an Audi R8 with a roof and without a turbo motor?

[Dauntless]

Originally posted by Russfeld
DSP sucks dude, get over it.

Yeah, they suck all right...straight down!

With a 280cm wheel base, 200cm width and a front splitter to rival a short-track R&S MIII, a DSP will generate plenty of stick all right. And with a grand total of just 28 hours of track time over three days, Fabcar's entries are already close to WSC speeds and lap times at Daytona.

But don't take my word for it. I asked Dave Klym how they were progressing, and here's part of his reply:

WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO MORE TESTING THIS WEEKEND AT DAYTONA WITH ALL 3 CARS.

OUR TIMES AND SPEEDS SO FAR ARE NOT WHERE THEY WILL BE WITH MORE DEVELOPMENT. ALSO WE ARE RUNNING THE NEW CHICANE SO WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT COMPARES WITH THE OLD SETUP.

WE HAVE GONE OVER 185 MPH, THE LAP TIMES ARE IN THE HIGH 1:40'S.

REGARDS, DAVE

BTW, that's already good enough to qualify in the top 10 in practically any year at Daytona. Not too shabby for being a good 150 hp down from a WSC.

[Fogelhund]

They've run a 1:48 right? Good enough for somewhere between 16th and 18th in 2001 on the grid. Behind the SRP II's and the GTS leaders. About the same in 2002, 16th 1:48.619 some 6 to 8 seconds off the pace of the SRP cars.

Now put the LMP cars at Daytona, and you would be running about 1:36 to 1:38... substantially quicker then the DSP's.

While we will grant that the suspension is very nice on a DSP, and somewhat near that of an Audi R8, they are nowhere near the same otherwise. Hopefully the DSP can become a wonderful National Series, just somewhat above club racing. Those who think this is the second coming, and expect NASCAR like close racing will be surely disappointed. Those like Brumos, and Bell Racing will have pay drivers, and better prepared cars, and will simply walk away from the rest of the cars. The DSP's will not provide any closer competition then the SRP's did. With some luck, there will be more competitors though, but given comments I have heard from drivers, alot needs to be changed before that happens.

I'm not close minded, and I will give them a watch to see what this is really like, but lets not pretend these things are somehow grander then they are.

[Dauntless]

Sure enough! I just double checked GA's web site, and the DSP's current speed of 1:48 would put them only as high as 14th - my mistake - thanks Fogelhund!

The point is that DSPs are already posting competitive times at Daytona with very little development, and those times are sure to improve between now and February, not to mention in the years to come. Russfeld may not like DSPs, but to say they "suck" is just plain stupid. DSPs are simply what they are - cars built to the rules for their particular racing series, same as the R8s.

Besides, I haven't seen anyone here seriously suggest a DSP's performance potential is equal to that of the R8, and certainly not Dave Klym. IIRC, during the 2000 LM, the commentators remarked that VW/Audi had spent $100 million on their LMP program, and I have since repeated read that they spend up to $50 million a year on the program. If those numbers are anywhere near accurate, then DPSs are already getting 90% of the Audi's performance on about one-percent of their budget. As an actual racer (and not some armchair expert...) who has built and raced cars for years, that impresses the hell out of me.

As to expectations of NASCAR-like close racing for 24 hours, I agree it ain't gonna happen. Besides, who's expecting that? Certainly nobody familiar with endurance racing. But speaking of close racing, they would be hard pressed to beat some of the WSC cliff-hangers we've watched at Daytona.

And the most thoroughly prepared teams with the best drivers have always been the teams to beat in racing - ANY form of racing. That applies to the R8s at LM, and it's no different with the DSPs at Daytona.

In the end, a racing series has to survive in the environment in which it finds itself. Every major sportscar series on the planet is searching for ways to keep racing affordable enough to attract new competitors and retain established ones. ACO is outlawing R8-type cars, ALMS is in serious financial difficulty, and Daytona is bringing in DSPs, which one can buy and run for a season for less than the price of a new WSC before it ever turns a wheel.

We've seen it all before, Bird-dog. The wheel just goes round and round...

Cheers! Stan

PS - I'm not dissing on you, Fogelhund, but there is some seriously errant nonsense on this thread that I feel compelled to respond to.

[Fogelhund]

I didn't think that you were dissing me, and yes obviously, we have both been around long enough to know that the wheels go round and round.


Having said that, I'm not sure what you are suggesting when you say the ACO will outlaw R8 type cars. What is it you are referring to? ALMS in serious financial difficulty? Interesting unfounded rumour.

I do understand why people would say that the DSP's suck, though I don't agree with them. Certainly if they became popular on a huge scale, and replaced the current type of cars, that would suck.... But I hope both do well on their own right.

[Dauntless]

ACO's 2004 rules prohibit quick-change gearboxes. Teams will still be able to rebuild the gearbox, of course, but won't be permitted the 4-minute rear half swap. This effectively outlaws the R8s.

For a brief comment on ALMS's financial woes, see the Oct 23, 2002 issue of AutoWeek, where they report Panoz "trying to cut costs across his motorsport empire." I'll look tomorrow for the other article I specifically had in mind. It states that ALMS continues to run deeply in the red, and that Don Panoz has fired people, terminated his engine program, and is reverting to the older LMP roadster, all as cost savings measures.

Nobody's predicting the demise of ALMS (which would be a great shame!), but when even a billionaire is feeling the pinch you have to concede that racing at this level has become frighteningly expensive.

G'Night and Merry New Year! Stan

[MulsanneMike]

From what I've seen of the '04 regs., they don't prohibit the quick change gearboxes. Granted, those were draft regulations and it could change before the final release. Speculations about the banning of the quick change gearbox come from comments made by William Hewland regarding his new TLS gearbox. When I contacted him mid year, the current rumor was that quick change 'boxes were to be banned. Mr. Hewland prided his new TLS 'box saying pretty much it didn't matter which way the regulations go, the TLS is designed not to break!

And Scott Antherton addressed the Panoz money rumors:

"Dear American Le Mans Series Stakeholders:

I didn't anticipate communicating with you again so soon, but a recent media report now requires me to set the record straight.

In this week's issue of National Speed Sport News there is an article by Steve Mayer that implies there is a cash flow problem within the Panoz Motor Sports Group - the division that includes the tracks, ALMS and schools.

This is not valid. Despite the inaccurate inference made in the article, the (highly exaggerated) issues being cited are specific to the Panoz-Sanchez Group and its ownership of the Trans-Am Series. It is a completely separate and autonomous business unit with no association with the Panoz Motor Sports Group. I can assure you that there are no issues related to the American Le Mans Series or the greater collection of Panoz companies.

As a point of fact, all Trans-Am and American Le Mans Series purses have been paid as well as all Privateer Points Fund awards.

If you have any questions regarding this unfortunate report please do not hesitate to contact me directly.

Thank you and, once again, happy holidays to you and your families.

All the best,

Scott Atherton
President and COO
Panoz Motor Sports Group"


Happy New Year everybody!

[veeten]

Hmmm... It looks to me that the best barometer of how far the DSP's performance potential can be assesed will be when Grand Am has it's race at Mid-Ohio.
By using the numbers from the ALMS round from this past season, there can be a comparison between the two types, much the same way that CART and F1 was made with the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in Montreal.

[Dauntless]

Yes, that's the article. Thanks, Mike!

For those who are subscribers to National Speed Sports News, you can read the entire article at http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/

For those who aren't, here is the abstract:

LOS ANGELES -- Cash-flow woes inside Don Panoz's motorsports empire have resulted in Trans-Am and American Le Mans Series competitors' not being paid. "We have a confluence of issues of the year-end obligations for the Trans-Am and ALMS series and network television," stated Panoz Motorsports President Scott Atherton. The issues have created a cash-flow problem, he said.

While there are two sides to almost any story, it appears to me that Atherton is engaging in more than a little damage control in his open letter to shareholders: "Don't dump your shares! All is well in Panoz-land!" But please don't take me wrong. I'm not bashing Panoz or even Atherton. For one thing, I am a big fan of ALMS in particular, and what Panoz has accomplished in general. And second, damage control and shareholder relations are no doubt part of Atherton's job description.

It is what Atherton doesn't deny that ices it for me. He doesn't deny that ALMS is bleeding cash, or that employees have been terminated and programs cut, all in an effort to stem the flow of red ink. That having been said, I am NOT predicting the imminent demise of ALMS, which I would consider an unmitigated disaster.

What I AM saying is that sportscar racing continues to be a money loser that once again appears headed into a period of retrenchment. GA seem to have recognised that the WSC era appears to have peaked, and are taking prudent steps to ensure their own future health. One can hardly blame them for that.

My statement that ACO will outlaw QC 'boxes is derived from statements in the press last summer and fall, though not directly to Hewland. However, since neither FIA nor ACO have released the 2004 regs, I concede that we'll have to wait for a definitive answer to that particular question.

[RacingManiac]

Regardless about the gearbox, the current era of LMP is ending though, not directly because of "banning the R8", but more of the changing the reg to move away from flatbottom car.....