ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Sportscar racing ...... at least our manufacturers support our own series ..... look to your own door step when looking for blame .

A little angry are we? Our own manufacturers... like Chevrolet Corvette? I'm not sure what you are on about otherwise. I don't see any manufacturers in the European Series at all... hmmmm

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A little angry are we? Our own manufacturers... like Chevrolet Corvette? I'm not sure what you are on about otherwise. I don't see any manufacturers in the European Series at all... hmmmm

Porsche

Ferrari

Mercedes

Lotus

BMW....

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Porsche

Ferrari

Mercedes

Lotus

BMW....

These manufacturers all have Manufacturer entries in the ELMS? Really?

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A little angry are we? Our own manufacturers... like Chevrolet Corvette? I'm not sure what you are on about otherwise. I don't see any manufacturers in the European Series at all... hmmmm

Angry , no , just ****ed off that your always laying blame at the door step of the ACO . Im happy with it , go find your own championship to get interested in , cuz your not interested in WEC at all .

Corvette is the only support from within the States for your series . So thats real impressive for a start !!!

Our own manufacturers ..... unless im mistaken , you dont have any being Canadian , unless Western Star are planning an entry ?

Lots of European manufacturer support in the ELMS , and WEC and ALMS too ...... possibily start supporting your own series and things may get better ..... instead of expecting European manufacturers to bolster your own series . But , one problem is you dont have so many manufacturers anymore .

Pug dont even sell cars Stateside , so whats the pull for them ?

2 Jags , 1 Doran Ford , 2 Corvettes ..... everyone else running Eurpoean chassis ..... theres your problem , no support from within .

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

As mentioned previously IMSA never folded, it is in fact who runs the ALMS.

www.imsaracing.net

I'm sorry, Don Panoz bailed out the ACO, both financially, and with the creation of the ALMS. If it wasn't for "us lot", Sportscar Racing over there would still be a mess.

It seems Don Panoz has gotten maligned in recent years and certainly the ALMS could probably do some things better. But he created or was responsible for upgrading Road Atlanta, Mosport and Sebring, getting the ALMS going, starting Petit Le Mans and so on.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Angry , no , just ****ed off that your always laying blame at the door step of the ACO . Im happy with it , go find your own championship to get interested in , cuz your not interested in WEC at all .

The ACO sucks donkey balls thats why. And we do have our own championship which this thread is about. It's going to suck for a few years, but if sportscar racing survives, hopefully we will all be better for it.

Originally Posted by The Badger

Corvette is the only support from within the States for your series . So thats real impressive for a start !!!

Our own manufacturers ..... unless im mistaken , you dont have any being Canadian , unless Western Star are planning an entry ?

Chrysler (what is left of it) is in rough shape. Ford has other motorsport ventures which provide higher ROI. Corvette will leave soon.

Western Star was an American company. It is owned by Daimler along with Freightliner.

Originally Posted by The Badger

Lots of European manufacturer support in the ELMS , and WEC and ALMS too ...... possibily start supporting your own series and things may get better ..... instead of expecting European manufacturers to bolster your own series . But , one problem is you dont have so many manufacturers anymore .

Pug dont even sell cars Stateside , so whats the pull for them ?

2 Jags , 1 Doran Ford , 2 Corvettes ..... everyone else running Eurpoean chassis ..... theres your problem , no support from within .

Most of those European manufacturers sell the majority of their cars here. That is frustrating.

Also, what is the difference between a English race team running a Ferrari opposed to one based in Texas?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The ACO sucks donkey balls

I agree with this user...

[Jonerz]

Also, the European manufacturers that support the ALMS are the North American arms of the company. Furthermore, the extent to which Porsche supports the ELMS at the moment is about equal to what Ford does in Grand-Am. They don't pay for TV coverage, they don't run a factory team, they simply offer cars and engines for sale (in addition to offering a P2 engine for ALMS use) and provide some support to the teams that choose to represent their brand.

We're not blaming having only two LMP1 teams solely on the ACO, we're merely frustrated that IMSA and the ALMS continue to believe that the relationship which was successful in the past will be successful again in future. Clearly the ACO's only interests lie in the ACO. They want the American market for eyeballs and Corvette, that has been the case since day one of Panoz-ACO cooperation. DP saved the ACO's bacon because of his romanticized views on sports car racing. For a while it was profitable, and the 2007 and 2008 seaons of the ALMS exist as my favorite seaons of any professional motor sport ever. However I have come to the conclusion that the ACO relationship is no longer of strong enough value to help the ALMS compete against Grand-Am and IndyCar in the North American market.

Grand-Am made its big move by effectively trying to undersell the ALMS on cost of getting a team on the grid, which was great for American privateer teams and their media package is better than what existed to those teams in the IMSA WSC era and what currently exists in the ALMS. Does Grand-Am have the best answer to the question? In my opinion, no. I think if the ALMS can create a product with a return on investment that equals or surpasses the cost of making the grid for a full season they could "win back" the vote of the American sports car racing scene that has been lost for the most part to Grand-Am. I believe that following the ACO as closely as the ALMS does now does not provide the right answer. While the 24 Hours of Le Mans is the Grand Daddy of them all the rules to govern it, or a World Championship reliant upon $100 million budgeted factory teams doesn't make sense for the American sports car scene. I've always suggested they can maintain similar rules, like Group C and GTP (which was IMSA by the way) did, but evangelically standing by the ACO for an American sports car series is no longer the way.

Chris

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Also, the European manufacturers that support the ALMS are the North American arms of the company. Furthermore, the extent to which Porsche supports the ELMS at the moment is about equal to what Ford does in Grand-Am. They don't pay for TV coverage, they don't run a factory team, they simply offer cars and engines for sale (in addition to offering a P2 engine for ALMS use) and provide some support to the teams that choose to represent their brand.

We're not blaming having only two LMP1 teams solely on the ACO, we're merely frustrated that IMSA and the ALMS continue to believe that the relationship which was successful in the past will be successful again in future. Clearly the ACO's only interests lie in the ACO. They want the American market for eyeballs and Corvette, that has been the case since day one of Panoz-ACO cooperation. DP saved the ACO's bacon because of his romanticized views on sports car racing. For a while it was profitable, and the 2007 and 2008 seaons of the ALMS exist as my favorite seaons of any professional motor sport ever. However I have come to the conclusion that the ACO relationship is no longer of strong enough value to help the ALMS compete against Grand-Am and IndyCar in the North American market.

Grand-Am made its big move by effectively trying to undersell the ALMS on cost of getting a team on the grid, which was great for American privateer teams and their media package is better than what existed to those teams in the IMSA WSC era and what currently exists in the ALMS. Does Grand-Am have the best answer to the question? In my opinion, no. I think if the ALMS can create a product with a return on investment that equals or surpasses the cost of making the grid for a full season they could "win back" the vote of the American sports car racing scene that has been lost for the most part to Grand-Am. I believe that following the ACO as closely as the ALMS does now does not provide the right answer. While the 24 Hours of Le Mans is the Grand Daddy of them all the rules to govern it, or a World Championship reliant upon $100 million budgeted factory teams doesn't make sense for the American sports car scene. I've always suggested they can maintain similar rules, like Group C and GTP (which was IMSA by the way) did, but evangelically standing by the ACO for an American sports car series is no longer the way.

Chris

I think the thing that frustrates me with sports car racing is there is constant chatter about the rules/formula that applies to the cars and it's why I tune out sometimes and don't pay attention and just watch the races if I am interested.

Surely there has to be an easier way than all the confusion going on right now.

The whole bit with the ACO, as I recall, and feel free to correct me if I am factually wrong, is the whole purpose of aligning with them in the late 1990's was for a few reasons:

1. Use of the well known established name "Le Mans"
2. Use of an established rules set to follow
3. By aligning with the ACO and their rules it would easy for American teams to compete at Le Mans

I think what needs to be done is to find a way you can have exotic cars fans want to see, at a reasonable cost teams can afford. I don't know if leaving the ACO is the answer though.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The ACO sucks donkey balls thats why.

Sorry but there's no basis for discussion with such points. If you Americans (no generalization, i just see that pretty much all members who are leading this crusade against the ACO/the WEC are either American or Canadian) want to be butthurt about it fine... but please don't stand in the way of sports car racing's success.

What ticks me off most is that the ACO is even criticized for it's rules and presumably making the cars "ugly". Have you guys forgotten Le Mans already?

The "ugly" cars are probably the only reason McNish & Rockenfeller are still alive. But even that is turned upside down and presented like a negative by saying that even DPs look better.

Apart from the fact that this is nonsense and the LMPs look absolutely fine, I wouldn't want to see what's left of a DP after a 309kph crash.. oh, I forgot, they don't even go nearly as fast.

Le Mans 2011 has been the most exciting sports car race for decades, that one race alone proves that the ACO is doing pretty much everything right. You can either enjoy the fruits of their work or you can leave it... but stop crapping on their efforts already just because your local market isn't as involved as you'd like.

Rant over...

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I think what needs to be done is to find a way you can have exotic cars fans want to see, at a reasonable cost teams can afford. I don't know if leaving the ACO is the answer though.

Of course it's not the answer, the series would lose it's complete legacy. Every ALMS broadcast starts with the "born in France blabla" bit... the whole series feeds off the legend of Le Mans.

If it's IMSA Sports Car Series or something like that, all you have left is a field largely made up of spec cars driven by amateur drivers. That series would be eaten alive by GA.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I'm sorry, Don Panoz bailed out the ACO, both financially, and with the creation of the ALMS. If it wasn't for "us lot", Sportscar Racing over there would still be a mess.

Yep.

Originally Posted by The Badger

Lots of European manufacturer support in the ELMS

C'mon, you know that there's nothing in the ELMS. Nothing. The Bailey factory car is about the most impressive factory effort the ELMS has at the moment. That's not even European! Maybe (big maybe) there will be a Hankook car, but Hankook isn't European either.

Meanwhile, amongst the companies that have real factory teams in GT2, both are in the ALMS and not anywhere else. Granted, even then BMW isn't putting big money into their ALMS program now it seems. There is the factory Falken program. That can't be ignored. Falken isn't American, but they are running here. Dunlop is mostly American owned now. All these Honda/HPD prototype programs never would have happened if it wasn't for Honda of America's money to begin with.

Anyway, these perceptions that the United States has become some sort of 3rd world country overnight simply isn't true.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It seems Don Panoz has gotten maligned in recent years and certainly the ALMS could probably do some things better. But he created or was responsible for upgrading Road Atlanta, Mosport and Sebring, getting the ALMS going, starting Petit Le Mans and so on.

The Hulman-George family did a lot to save and upgrade the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. If it wasn't for them, racing in America may have died out. Even Tony George himself did a lot to upgrade the facilities at IMS. Even with all of that, I would not expect you to defend what the Hulman-George family does today, right?

Well, it's the same with Don Panoz. We all recognize what he did in the late 90s and early 2000s. That was remarkable stuff that many of us never saw coming. We salute him for that. His (or his people's) recent decision making can only be described as being "senile" though. Now he signs agreements with the ACO only to have the ACO take a massive dump on him a few weeks later. We don't have Panoz GT1s and LMP1s now, we now have the Abruzzi and DeltaWang abominations. There's spec cars everywhere now. BoP is running amok. The rules keep changing and the ALMS does not know if they should follow the ACO's rules or the rules that are best for the teams and the racing itself. The P cars have become so ugly and are slowing because of the 3:30 rule that is totally useless to American racing. What's so great about all of that?

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The ACO sucks donkey balls thats why.

Wait, I thought they suck camel balls? And donkey balls too?

Originally Posted by Acid09

Every ALMS broadcast starts with the "born in France blabla" bit... the whole series feeds off the legend of Le Mans.

Who gives a flip?

If it's IMSA Sports Car Series or something like that, all you have left is a field largely made up of spec cars driven by amateur drivers. That series would be eaten alive by GA.

Yeah, and that would be so much different from today's spec and BoPed to spec cars driven by amateur drivers.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Apart from the fact that this is nonsense and the LMPs look absolutely fine, I wouldn't want to see what's left of a DP after a 309kph crash.. oh, I forgot, they don't even go nearly as fast.

Someone who should know said they were just getting over 322kph at the recent Daytona tests. And they can also get airborn at Daytona, lest anyone suggest that's not fast enough to achieve that.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by AGD

Who gives a flip?

Yeah, and that would be so much different from today's spec and BoPed to spec cars driven by amateur drivers.

Uhh, the ALMS obviously does, that's why that trailer exists.

Probably not but the current state isn't the ACO's fault... but the Le Mans name at least polishes the train wreck a bit. If you take that last bit of polish away...what's left?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Uhh, the ALMS obviously does, that's why that trailer exists.

Maybe the ALMS likes it, but the fans don't care. The fans may not even like it now. Heck, the ALMS may not even like it given what has transpired since the last ALMS race.

Probably not but the current state isn't the ACO's fault... but the Le Mans name at least polishes the train wreck a bit. If you take that last bit of polish away...what's left?

Maybe it polishes the train wreck from the perspective of a WEC fan, but it does not from the perspective of an American sports car fan. If it's going to be privateer stuff, why not allow the cars to run big ole' American V8s? Or any number of things not allowed by the ACO? Just opening up the restrictors on the current equipment may help. It may still be amateurish, but at least it's more along the lines of what the fans want. It may also bring more cars out of the woodwork.

[Acid09]

Isn't GA already giving the fans what they want with big V8s and everything? It seems to me like that marked is occupied.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Isn't GA already giving the fans what they want with big V8s and everything? It seems to me like that marked is occupied.

Absolutely not. Grand-Am uses a massive BoP formula. Granted, so does the ALMS in more modern times, but that's not exactly a comparison to a healthy series. Grand-Am also has spec tires and so forth. There are the issues of tube framers and the overall speeds. There are issues about the use of the yellow flag as in-race BoP (if you think ALMS yellows are out of control, watch a GA race). There is also the issue that a lot of American road racing fans just don't trust the Frances.

Long story short, there are a lot of problems with GA that better looking cars won't fix. There's room for a series that isn't GA, but the ALMS of today isn't the answer.

[JAG]

The launch of the ALMS didn't retain Porsche, the star attraction at PLM '98, it didn't retain Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota and BMW (one year stay of execution excepted) who took the Le Mans start in '99, the series very much reflected the Le Mans grid but struggled to get commitment from Cadillac or the ORECA Chrysler LMP's.

All that changed when Porsche and Acura arrived, but much of the personel came across from Indycar and have since departed, look back down the years and ALMS grids don't look too dissimilar to todays once you remove Audi and series backer Panoz's cars.

If in charge of the series I'd still be looking to get the likes of Audi NA involved but think the biggest opportunties come from raiding Indycar and GA, I don't think ACO rules are a hinderance if IMSA tweaking is allowed, they offer a wealth of chassis options that may not otherwise be available.

[AGD]

ALMS/IMSA needs to get to the point where non-manufacturer companies are wanting to put their name on the side of a car. That helps ensure long-term stability. That's not happening today and it really hasn't happened all that much throughout the history of the ALMS. In order for that to happen, IMSA has to capture the imaginations of the fans and stuff like that. Big honkified Lolas with BoPed low horsepower engines aren't going to do that. A consumption formula would be a nightmare. Instable rules aren't going to help teams get sponsorship. Here today, gone tomorrow classes don't help. BoP is an embarrassment. IMSA needs a premier 24 hour type enduro to add to their profile. IMSA needs to be able to control their schedule and be able to schedule races freely during the important summer months. These are all areas where the ACO is holding IMSA back. Most of all, they should never be associated with an organization that is trying to put them out of business. Period.

EDIT: As great as the 2008ish period was for ALMS fans, the ALMS era with the greatest TV ratings was the R8 vs. Panoz LMP-1 era with other prototypes mixed in as well.

[JAG]

IMSA needs Daytona, Watkins Glen and a few of GA's teams, that isn't going to happen, so I can't see how opening up another battle front with the ACO is going to help.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

IMSA needs Daytona, Watkins Glen and a few of GA's teams, that isn't going to happen, so I can't see how opening up another battle front with the ACO is going to help.

Very few people here would give a damn about the ACO and whatever nonsense they are peddling if IMSA went in a different direction. The ACO had their chance here, but they've blown it. American road racing fans may not like France family nonsense, but they would take whatever they are doling out ahead of anything greedy Frenchmen dole out. Doubly so when those greedy Frenchmen tried to take a dump on American fans. If IMSA put out a strong product, the ACO would not even be a flea to them in the domestic market.

IMO, IMSA needs a premier 24 hour type race. Yes, there is the Daytona 24, but I think many fans view that as a weak race at the moment. Things were different in the past, but that was the past. Things change. I don't know what would be the best venue or date for a 24 hour race, but stuff like that can be figured out. There are more pressing needs that should be solved first.

[Speed-King]

I am not sure if Daytona would be feasible for LMPs anymore... apparently DIS's insurance company is throwing a major fit over DPs getting close to 200mph on the banking.

So even if the Frances wanted they probably couldn't bring back LMPs to Daytona.

[Jonerz]

Americans and Canadians (or this American anyway) aren't "butthurt" about the ACO. We're actually more angry with the ALMS leadership refusing to step far enough away, in our minds, from ACO rules to better suit US sports car racing. Also, I never said that this year's Le Mans wasn't fantastic or even that ACO rules are bad and should be done away with. I said that their rules don't allow the ALMS to be competitive against competition in the US market. If the ALMS had a media footprint that was significantly greater than Grand-Am and could provide an ROI that makes small professional teams (the Starworks and even Gainscos of the world) indulge in the larger investment for P1 or GT racing in the ALMS than there would be no discussion about doing away with the ACO or changing the formula significantly enough so as to upset the ACO and VAG and Peugeot to equalize competition. (we've already seen in print that even Pickett Racing, an ALMS stalwart isn't happy about running for best of the rest at Sebring.) A greater footprint and ROI for teams isn't likely to happen any time soon (again the fault of the ALMS not the ACO) so it is imperative the ALMS do something to sell itself to the Starworks and Gainscos of the world.

I think there is a lot of blame to go around between the ACO, IMSA and the ALMS and even "blame" falls at the feet of Grand-Am for having done such a great job to provide a platform for professional American road racing teams that both have fully professional lineups and sell to amateurs. Does Grand-Am have the perfect answer? No, they are missing the attraction that factory cars bring to a championship, and the hardcore sports car fan would like an open tire formula and generally faster more aerodynamically open cars (read: more attractive), like those that are seen in the ACO.

JAG is right about the potential the ALMS has remaining with the ACO, if the ALMS can get Toyota of North America, Honda of North America, Porsche, or Audi of America or some combination of the above to return to the series it would be a boon and go a long way in returning the championship to its fantastic status circa 2008. However, for race-by-race anorak supporters of the ALMS and American sports car racing we've seen a serious decline in the professionalism of the championship from its days as the darling of the International racing scene, so naturally we are concerned about the current management's ability to bring back the good days as well as perhaps too impatiently waiting for the return of one or two big manufacturers to P1 who are willing to spend money not only racing, but marketing the championship. Therefore we have a desire to see something change, and allowing a larger range of engines in P1 like 6 liter V12s or 7 liter V8s and perhaps only using ACO tubs as the basis for a prototype formula exclusive to eve US that is more attractive than the current formula and better than Grand-Am financially for the teams running them. It's not impossible, we just want something to happen to fix the series instead of stagnation. Because with stagnation, even though there is potential of ACO manufacturers coming to play in America, there is no indication that either the North American branches or the manufacturers themselves will want to add the cost of an additional US program to their hundred million dollar WEC programs.

I will enthusiastically watch the WEC but I don't want the ALMS to suffer as a result of strengthening global sports car racing. There is no reason it should and if the LMS has hardcore fans the way the ALMS does I'm certain they feel the same way. All aspects of sportscar racing should grow, the strong bits shouldn't be simply moved from one branch to another which is almost what it feels like with the WEC. (of course Toyota and Porsche and the potential Honda programs seem to indicate growth attributable to the WEC.) Again, we wait and see what happens, hopefully the growth of the WEC will help the ALMS and sports car racing world wide, not just one International sports car series.

Chris

Edit: essentially the reason we want the ACO out is because we want the people who are in charge of the ALMS to have US sports car racing's interests at heart and not have a world championship to farm the assets of American racing out to. Hopefully the ALMS returns to its strong days and it can share a weekend at Road America and Laguna with the WEC. Four separate sports car races on two super weekends at two great tracks.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Uhh, the ALMS obviously does, that's why that trailer exists.

Probably not but the current state isn't the ACO's fault... but the Le Mans name at least polishes the train wreck a bit. If you take that last bit of polish away...what's left?

The train wreck partly exists because the IMSA lost Daytona, its true feature event, sadly to the France boy whose is not much better at road racing management than Panoz.
Followed by Panoz's infatuation with LeMans and his willingness to be the ACO's butt-boy.

The train had started to derail already in 2004. A few peoples ignoring ACO rules attempts to plug holes temporarily stopped the trainrolling and kept people interested but half-assed repairs get half-assed results.

Last bit of polish?
Fool's gold maybe.

[Matt]

What the heck does BoP mean?