Safety Car

[The Fat Clerk]

Did anyone see the World Touring Cars from Pau yesterday?
Priceless, Safety Car comes out of the pit lane goes strainght to the middle of the track and collects the race leader literally.

[Hepatic]

awww you spoilt it, i still got that and WSB to watch

[terence]

Saw it on youtube Dave,I doubt the guy had ever been in the SC before.
Wonder if he was shouted just a little too late?

[The Fat Clerk]

I think you should phone the FIA Terry, after the job you did for the Masters @ Donny last week, I'd say you're better qualified than the guy yesterday. Mind you I think the 911 helped!

[Bodysnatcher]

according to this post/thread (with pic of the outcome)
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115781
it's claimed that the safety car was only put on standby.

Poor comms or rabbit as an SC driver?

[terence]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

I think you should phone the FIA Terry, after the job you did for the Masters @ Donny last week, I'd say you're better qualified than the guy yesterday. Mind you I think the 911 helped!

Very kind word's Dave,thankyou,but it was still a team effort and ChrisA was very good at his job which made mine easier.
How come that poor sod had that Chevvy to use?911 or M3 anytime!

[EBs 330 was OK,just a bit of a job finding storage space for the bits that kept falling off]

[PVDA]

So were the crew series officials or local officials or worse local drivers who know nothing about how an event operates.

I strongly believe the SC or FIV drivers don't need to be a race driver as they don't understand how a race really works. Besdise an FIV Driver should do scene control once they arrive so you need someone senior driving.

[terence]

So you are suggesting that a non-racer should be allowed to take control and to be able to ascertain the speed that the following drivers need to be kept at?I would have thought that would be asking for trouble,what if there were a grid full of FI cars behind the safety car and the non-racer is driving [because of the lack of knowledge] at 30/40 mph?

[Andy 325]

According to what I read yesterday and seen on telly the yellows were waving but the safety car board wasn't put out in time for the leaders to see it before the first car thumped into it. Looks like the SC driver was a bit eager to get involved in the action and got more than he bargained for.

[terence]

Which makes me wonder IF he had any race experience at all.Plus of course, reiterating on my previous post,why do drivers continue at race pace when they see yellows being waved,I always thought that you ease off and proceed with caution.Obviously even more desirable at somewhere like Pau where just about every corner is blind.

[Robin_D]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Which makes me wonder IF he had any race experience at all.Plus of course, reiterating on my previous post,why do drivers continue at race pace when they see yellows being waved,I always thought that you ease off and proceed with caution.Obviously even more desirable at somewhere like Pau where just about every corner is blind.

That's what I thought Terry. What if there was a stricken racing car there with Marshals around. Waved yellows were out.

But if the flags were out at the startline, does this mean that the safeycar had been scrambled? Who knows.

[terence]

The results of that dont bear thinking about Robin. Perhaps a new AMBER flag to warn of imminent SC intervention would help,then again I cant imagine that race drivers would bother to learn what that meant either

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

That's what I thought Terry. What if there was a stricken racing car there with Marshals around. Waved yellows were out.

...then there would have been double waved yellows ( http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk/FIA_flag_regulations.htm ) displayed at the preceding flag point.

IMHO the driver was entitled to believe that any hazard was "beside or partly" on the track, and not "partly or wholly blocking" it and that he should be "prepared to change direction" not "prepared to ... stop" as that's precisely what the flags told him. (NB: not the flaggies fault either, as when the car went past, there was no such hazard visible)

[Woolley]

Waved flags clearly displayed at both start line and previous post, SC board certainly coming out at one of them should give a clue to the drivers, especially since at least three cars had been in the wall by then and one on fire. Poor driving by competitors, not exactly unusual in Touring Car series.

Add to that dumb FIA flag rules so they can't tell the difference between a minor thing and a major (Everything waved) and the need for the marshals to find another board for SC rather than using the yellows they already had to hand. Plus they still use the 'catch them at the start line' approach, rather than getting the field under control NOW and put the safety car out when they've already slowed says this is an accident just waiting to happen.

Oh, and no landlines means flaggies can only respond to what they see instead of simultaneous display all around the circuit.

Seems the SC driver is going to get the blame, rather than the FIA's crass attempts at bringing in a procedure the Americans had largely perfected.

Excellent, all my hobby horses in one post!

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

But if the flags were out at the startline, does this mean that the safeycar had been scrambled?

Having worked the first post after pit exit at Brands for FIA standard meetings, if I saw the safety car coming on track but without the SC board and yellows at start line, then I'd assume that the person on post with the radio had not heard the call (or the call had not yet been made by control) - but my post would get a yellow and SC board out as soon as possible.
So I reckon the answer is still maybe not..

BTW, how long will the FIA's man have us practicing safety car procedure at Brands in 2 months? (us = marshals/safety car driver/local race control)
My money would be on 3 sessions...

[terence]

I still think that SC intervention would be made far more effective if racers were to learn the flags and have a better understanding of them.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Seems the SC driver is going to get the blame

I'm not going to argue with you on the regulations, but it does seem to me that the SC went straight across to the middle of the circuit, in front of a car which was at full or nearly full racing speed. The white line on pit lane exit is there for a reason, and drivers are penalised for crossing it for a reason....what the SC did was dangerous enough at normal pit exit speed, especially on a bend like that, and he was nowhere near normal speed!

Watch again, and imagine that it's not the SC, but any driver (pick one you don't like), making a normal pit lane exit, and ask yourself "what would i ask/expect the clerk to do, upon reading my report of this one"

[Robin_D]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

... in front of a car which was at full or nearly full racing speed.

It shouldn't have been at full racing speed regardless. A yellow flag before a blind corner?

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

It shouldn't have been at full racing speed regardless.

Which is why I said "or near" ... but perhaps you're right, and I should have omitted the 'full' entirely.

Originally Posted by Robin_D

A yellow flag before a blind corner?

....which indicates to the driver that the black stuff is clear at least to the extent that it is not "blocked"

[terence]

-------so proceed with caution.

[Robin_D]

Originally Posted by terence bower

-------so proceed with caution.

Just watched the video again. The SC board is out at the startline.

[Woolley]

... be prepared to stop.

White line is there so that competitive vehicles can blend in with other competitive vehicles during racing. SC would expect to join the track and have racing vehicles tootling around safely and obeying the flags which clearly didn't happen. Since flags were out at the final corner, start line and first corner I would expect the team to be suggesting there might be something of which he should be aware, and it's not like he needs to be going fast to defend his position, since no overtaking.

If the SC left the pit lane without being informed directly then clearly they have some responsibility, but chief flags and those in the vicinity of start line were clearly aware and were indicating so to the drivers. I do, however, suggest the FIA systems are inadequate at best, dangerously ineffective at worst especially when combined with drivers who do not respond appropriately.

[SWCRacing]

Absolutely, positively 100% Engstler's fault!!!!!

SC boards out at Start / finish line and at least the preceding and subsequent posts - as per FIA regs. There is nothing wrong with the regs, it's only the driver's understanding of them that is a problem. The commentator could also do with having a refresher on them as well!!!!

SC boards only ever go out when Race Control scramble the SC

I sincerely hope the FIA throw the book at Engstler, as he caused a totally avoidable accident, which fortunately wasn't as bad as it could have been

[greenbean]

i would say it was 90% engstlers fault and 10% race controls fault as they safety car should of left the pits a bit earlyer so it was further round . but you can clearly see the flag is out on the start line so the drivers should of backed off

[Dave Brand]

Looking at the video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfMkYK5ntU0

the Safety Car came out of the pit lane too late, too slowly & on the wrong line. Apart from that, nothing wrong . . .