Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Plex]

Le Mans 24 2012 is really getting exciting...Audi all the way...Overkill it is...Which leads to think Audi is not taking any chances if for some reason the hybrid gives trouble the diesels will finish the race..

[Coach Ep]

The hybrids are diesels as well aren't they?

[chernaudi]

I can see both sides of the coin--we don't know how reliable the hybrids will be, and they won't race until Spa. Just because Audi had reliablity out of the box with the R8, R10 and the "old" R18, doesn't mean that the R18H will repeat history.

But at the same time, only Toyota will be there as "serious" competition, and if they have decent reliability, the German-Japanese juggernauts might lock out the important spots in LMP1/overall anyways if they don't have major problems. So 4 Audis/2 Toyotas or 3 Audis/2 Toyotas, it'll still be a podium sweep for factory cars most likely.

But Audi's post WEC/LM24 announcement press release says that the "R18 TDI" will run Sebring, and it hints that it could be the older cars that gave them trouble last year, which is maybe why they're entering 3 per rumor at Sebring. Will Audi run the old R18s, or R18H's without the hybrid system--it doesn't make much sense for Audi to run the older R18's with their issues and not give the new areo package/chassis an in-race test.

[Mal]

There is no way I am going to criticise Audi for supporting LM so well or the ACo for accepting the entry.

[Simmi]

Awesome to see Oli Jarvis get a drive. I assume Bonanomi will get a seat in that car too?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mal

There is no way I am going to criticise Audi for supporting LM so well or the ACo for accepting the entry.

I agree with you 100% Mal.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I agree with you 100% Mal.

Espcially when looking at the reserve list. There isn't any truly spectaculer cars who could deserve the entry more.

[Articus]

Thanks to Audi and Toyota and Pesca Dyson etc... Le Mans might be saved!
I hope the Audi's are allowed to race each other. Would like to see McNish and Lotterer have at it cleanly!
Also Audi said they are running the Hybrid in WEC correct?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Congratulations to Audi and Joest on their amazing victory and podium sweep in the 2012 24 Hours of Le Mans

[TF110]

You're writing off Toyota like they won't challenge. HPD have a great chance as well, and who knows what DOME can do! A bit early to proclaim them winners.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by TF110

You're writing off Toyota like they won't challenge. HPD have a great chance as well, and who knows what DOME can do! A bit early to proclaim them winners.

You're right, I'll have to wait until after Lap 1 at Le Mans this year making sure all the Audis start the race, then I can proclaim them winners. Sorry.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

You're right, I'll have to wait until after Lap 1 at Le Mans this year making sure all the Audis start the race, then I can proclaim them winners. Sorry.

[TF110]

Jokes aside, Audi got shown by Peugeot in every other race besides LeMans, with a car that's basically the same it's been since introduced. The major change was the smaller wing and engine. Audi should be proud to have won LeMans, sure! But don't act like they can't be touched. Because they were, by a smaller manufacturer, with a smaller budget, with smaller development. They'll be watching their mirrors, but not just for their teammates.

[AGD]

Well, Audi has shown that they can spend a lot of money just to end up looking foolish. On the other hand, so has Toyota. JRM or Strakka for victory then? Sweet redemption for the AMR-One?

But, seriously, I think Audi has a pretty good shot at taking a 1-2-3-4 at Le Mans this year. It'll be hard to get everything lined up perfectly for four cars (especially two with the new hybrids), but if they can pull their heads out of their arses, I think they have a pretty good shot at things. Toyota is definitely a wildcard, but they have a lot to prove still.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by AGD

Well, Audi has shown that they can spend a lot of money just to end up looking foolish. On the other hand, so has Toyota. JRM or Strakka for victory then? Sweet redemption for the AMR-One?

But, seriously, I think Audi has a pretty good shot at taking a 1-2-3-4 at Le Mans this year. It'll be hard to get everything lined up perfectly for four cars (especially two with the new hybrids), but if they can pull their heads out of their arses, I think they have a pretty good shot at things. Toyota is definitely a wildcard, but they have a lot to prove still.

yeah they have alot to prove but Toyota still is determined to win at le mans. how funny is it that after Toyota announces two cars Audi runs for the hills and enters their two hybrids too. i think Audi will be the favorites for the podium but it would be stupid to write Toyota off even if this is their maiden year. these guys stufffed up formula one but everything else seems to fit well for the boys and girls in cologne. i think this year alone they had six formula one teams testing their cars there

[FstrthnU]

So looking closer at the entry lists, the R18 Hybrids will be full-season WEC, while the regular R18s will only be for Le Mans

[cmk]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

yeah they have alot to prove but Toyota still is determined to win at le mans. how funny is it that after Toyota announces two cars Audi runs for the hills and enters their two hybrids too. i think Audi will be the favorites for the podium but it would be stupid to write Toyota off even if this is their maiden year. these guys stufffed up formula one but everything else seems to fit well for the boys and girls in cologne. i think this year alone they had six formula one teams testing their cars there

When people were talking about Audi likely having entered 4 cars, they were also still talking about Peugeot entering 3. I don't think this is Audi's response to Toyota you're seeing here...

Toyota has tons of potential but it's hard to dominate your first crack at LM. Peugeot's 908 certainly didn't show its true strength until year 2, and remember the R8R/R8C were no great shakes at LM in 99 either.

The setup at Cologne is certainly good technically; they have a good underutilized wind tunnel. That, combined with fun loopholes in the RRA, is the reason why F1 teams used their facilities. I don't really see what relevance that has to their likely strength upon debut at LM.

[TF110]

Ferrari used Toyota's tunnel because their own wasn't giving them the correlation from it to the track. So they went to Toyota's tunnel to recalibrate their own. McLaren has stated that they'll have a new underground windtunnel, and their benchmark was to be better than Toyota's. F1 teams go to Toyota's tunnel because it's one of if not the best in the business. Their drivers are saying that compared to the 908, the TS030 has already got comparable downforce. This will be a great LeMans and WEC this year. I really feel that Audi will have a reasonable challenge on their hands.

[chernaudi]

The problem with TMG is that they've been away from sportscar racing for 13 years, and to expect a team to come in and completely clean up is a lot to ask for. They may be on the pace eventually, but the 24 Hours of Le Mans is too much to ask probably for TMG's first try on their return.

It took Peugeot 3 years (and a faltering Audi with the R15) to win LM in '09, and even though the came close to repeating in '10 and especially '11, they couldn't quite make #2 in their then current incarnation, and even Toyota had reliability issues ('98) and horrid luck ('99) when TMG was last at LM. It also took Bentley 3 years to win LM when they did it in '03, but those wins/losses might have been in part dictated by tire choice (Bentley switched to Michelin in '03 from Dunlop), a not quite up to date car (which the '03 car was--the Audi R10, R15 and R18 cribbed a bunch of areo stuff off it it), and above all else, VAG politics (trying to get Audi 3 in a row before Bentley won).

And yes, Audi had instant success with the R8 and R10, and the R18 won first time out at LM, but that was on the back of the disastrous R8C and obsolescent R8R of 1999, and the R18 was the fruit of the not particularity successful R15.

It's logical to think that it'll take at least 2-3 years for a new team to become serious contenders at LM, as opposed to being dark horses. A car can be successful in sprint races, but LM is a much tougher nut to crack, as Peugeot can attest to, especially if you're battling someone with years of experience, and I don't think that Toyota can count on substantial attrition against Audi this year, with the R18's redesign being in part to deal with the visibility issues that caused so many of McNish's and Kristensen's accidents last year.

The only kink might be that the LM field is filled with pro-am drivers, and we remember what happened with Rocky and Rob Kaufmann last year, but that can happen just as easily to Toyota, so it's not an equalizer and it's pure Russian roulette for everyone.

It's not impossible for TMG to pull of a first year back victory at LM, but it's pretty improbably being outnumbered and facing an experienced foe that hopefully learned from last year's near debacle.

As for the R18, any more speculation about it's front suspension maybe being a pushrod or pullrod system (the TS030 uses pushrods all around). The Ferrari F2012 uses pullrods all around to lower the CG, but the big rumor is that it's to help out with getting the front tires to work better with the chassis.

If Audi is running a pullrod suspension, could that be a motivation, since it took them a while to get the front tires to work the way the wanted to. However, with the R18's weight distribution and its zero-keel nose, would the question of pushrod vs pullrod matter?

[FKWD2]

Quote: "how funny is it that after Toyota announces two cars Audi runs for the hills and enters their two hybrids too. "


....well, to be honest, a decision like that is not taken in a week.... and just to be clear, I don't think anyone at Audi Sport underestimates the Toyota programme.

[FKWD2]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The problem with TMG is that they've been away from sportscar racing for 13 years

...if I remember correctly, they didn't exactly stop being active in a top-level engineering based motorsport.....

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It also took Bentley 3 years to win LM when they did it in '03, but those wins/losses might have been in part dictated by .........., and above all else, VAG politics (trying to get Audi 3 in a row before Bentley won).

Sorry, but thats just plain wrong (typed a different word but wanted to stay polite).

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by TF110

Jokes aside, Audi got shown by Peugeot in every other race besides LeMans, with a car that's basically the same it's been since introduced. The major change was the smaller wing and engine. Audi should be proud to have won LeMans, sure! But don't act like they can't be touched. Because they were, by a smaller manufacturer, with a smaller budget, with smaller development. They'll be watching their mirrors, but not just for their teammates.

I think your missing the big fact that the Peugeot was fast BECAUSE it was essentially the same car and was running the highest HP engine allowed by the rules.
The car was not innovative by any means.
The Audi on the other hand was able to stay on pace with the 908 for most of the season and made for some great battles. And it was Audi's first year out with a coupe in a long time, and the car(engine) were very innovative.
The stats on paper would look as if the Pug would be much faster, and I was quite suprised to see that single turbo V6 power that R18 like it did

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

I think your missing the big fact that the Peugeot was fast BECAUSE it was essentially the same car and was running the highest HP engine allowed by the rules.
The car was not innovative by any means.
The Audi on the other hand was able to stay on pace with the 908 for most of the season and made for some great battles. And it was Audi's first year out with a coupe in a long time, and the car(engine) were very innovative.
The stats on paper would look as if the Pug would be much faster, and I was quite suprised to see that single turbo V6 power that R18 like it did

Who cares if it was innovative or not? It was faster and last time I checked that's all that counts in racing. Audi's problem is that they want to be over-innovative all the time.

Look at the initial R15, it was simply way too complicated to set up and thus largely a failure. Audi tends to overthink things instead of being purely results-driven.

That worked for them when there was no competition but the faults in their approached showed when there was somebody giving them hell. Even the R18 is fundamentally flawed with its visibility issues.

You can spin it as you want, Audi's head to head results against Peugeot are quite pathetic and unfortunately they won't be getting the chance to correct it. The stat of Peugeot going out unbeaten against them outside Le Mans since Sebring 2009 (!) will be in the history books forever.

I think Toyota is wise enough to have observed this very closely, if you pressure Audi enough they will make mistakes. Both on track and in terms of design.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Acid09

You can spin it as you want, Audi's head to head results against Peugeot are quite pathetic and unfortunately they won't be getting the chance to correct it. The stat of losing every single race against Peugeot outside Le Mans since Sebring 2009 will be forever in the history books..

In the history books maybe, but who remembers all those other wins in comparison with near total domination of Peugeot at Le Mans......

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

In the history books maybe, but who remembers all those other wins in comparison with near total domination of Peugeot at Le Mans......

Near total domination? They had nothing to show against Peugeot in terms of speed until 2011... the low point was 2010 when they were totally helpless and lucked out to win.