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Old 4 Feb 2012, 15:31 (Ref:3021503)   #2551
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Near total domination? They had nothing to show against Peugeot in terms of speed until 2011... the low point was 2010 when they were totally helpless and lucked out to win.

Yes. They lost to Peugeot once. That's ONE time. You make your own luck. You can go as fast as you like but if you don't win it means zip. I've never been the greatest Audi fan, but even I don't try and big up what was ultimately a disastrous failure on home soil for Peugeot. They would have happily given up any number of wins elsewhere for another Le Mans victory. One win? Yep, that sounds like domination to me.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 15:37 (Ref:3021506)   #2552
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Yes. They lost to Peugeot once. That's ONE time. You make your own luck. You can go as fast as you like but if you don't win it means zip. I've never been the greatest Audi fan, but even I don't try and big up what was ultimately a disastrous failure on home soil for Peugeot. One win? Yep, that sounds like domination to me.
You do? How did Audi made the Peugeot's fail?

Sorry but this is nonsense, if you don't have the speed of your opponent at all and only win because they fail it's luck. Yes, reliability is a big part of endurance racing but relying on it means you don't have any control over the race...which Audi didn't have at all... they needed Peugeot to fail to win - That's luck if you ask me.

I have a feeling we wouldn't even be discussing this if another manufacturer was involved. Nobody questions that BMW winning the 2010 Nürburgring or Mazda winning in 1991 was largely luck but because Audi is involved it somehow had to be their strategy and a great plan. Nonsense, Peugeot didn't have any engine problems ever before so the whole idea that Audi was expecting them to have these problems is ridiculous.

They did their part in making the car reliable, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that this win fell into their lap.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 15:44 (Ref:3021509)   #2553
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As far as lap times outside of Imola, the 908 wasn't really any faster in race trim as far as them having a decisive advantage.

The 908 did, however, have a slight but decisive advantage in straightline speeds about everywhere--the only reason why it didn't help them at Le Mans is that the R18 in LM trim was a lot better in braking and in the faster corners than the 908s, which at LM tended to be very twitchy and less stable under braking (which may've caused Davidson's near off at one of the Mulsanne chicanes) and in faster corners.

However, when the Pugs didn't have to run with a full LM trim, they did fine, and it was Audi having to sort out issues with their HD bodywork, as they focused on their LM stuff, which paid off at LM, but didn't help them elsewhere.

The big issue for TMG is how fast can they catch up to Audi if the rules are fairly equal, can they handle 24 Hours out of the gate (easier to make a reliable car faster than to make a fast one reliable), and can the gasoline hybrid deal with the power, and especially torque, of the diesel, let alone the diesel hybrid. We have to consider this--Peugeot claimed that the 2012 908 was about a second a lap faster in testing than the same car last year, and that was with 60hp less and the fender holes, and Audi have clearly done work on the R18--what that exactly is we won't know until at least late this month when the definitive R18H will break cover--aimed at tackling Peugeot.

Toyota haven't exactly been away from top level racing, but they left F1 at the end of '09, and aside from selling engines to Rebellion, they haven't been directly involved in endurance racing since '99, when they left to run F1. And we have to remember that the worlds of endurance racing and F1 are still very different, even as the LM24 has been turned into a glorified 24 hour sprint race. You can only hammer cars like that for that long though experience, and that's something that Toyota/TMG might have to re-learn a bit.

Even as serious as TMG are, they have to know that '12 is a building year--remember that Peugeot said the same about '07, and while they dominated the LMS (no serious competition helped there, but they also used each race to gain info about the 908 that helped in '08 and later), they knew that LM was going to be a struggle, and it was. They set a goal of having one of their cars finish, and even though it nearly lost its engine, they not only got one of their cars to finish second, but the other one, if not for a fuel injection issue, could've finished well, too.

We do have to be realistic--TMG now claim to be behind on testing, and they won't make Sebring, which may or may not hurt them, but it certainly won't help. I don't thing, especially as the season wears on, that Toyota won't be a push over and we shouldn't expect a repeat of F1--untold hundreds or millions of dollars spent for fairly few results--but we shouldn't necessarily expect them to dominate out of the gate, either. Such a thing will take time, and we saw that with Peugeot. But also, as we've seen with Audi and Peugeot, the best aren't infallible, either.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 15:45 (Ref:3021510)   #2554
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That's nonsense, imo. Making your car last is also part of racing and if you fail at that it has nothing to do with luck, but with ability. The best overall package won, it's as simple as that.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 15:45 (Ref:3021511)   #2555
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A win is a win.

4 wins are 4 wins.

Whether wins fell into laps is completely immaterial. You can't quote 'the history books' and then pick and choose your stats.

As I say, Peugeot would have traded wins probably on a ratio of 5:1 or more for another Le Mans. The history books will show a 20% success rate, that's about an F grade to me.

Nonsense? Not to me - clear as day to me.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 17:13 (Ref:3021555)   #2556
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I have to agree with Ayse: the general public will only remember the big races, and the LM24 is the biggest of all in sportscar racing. Wins in big races are wins in big races, and that's what people who aren't anoraks like us will remember, and that's what history will record.

Did Mazda luck in the LM '91? To an extent, yes, by getting a favorable rules package and the Mercedes-Benz entries running into troubles that knocked them out or delayed them. But that's endurance racing. Luck is a big factor, but you can make your own luck to a degree, too. Mazda knew that the 787 can be pushed to it's limits for much of the race, and by lobbying got rules that helped them and exploited loopholes in the rules. But if it wasn't for that, their intensive endurance testing that assured them that they can drop the hammer for 24 hours, and that using that to pressure M-B and Jaguar, they probably wouldn't have won. Mazda made their own luck by putting themselves--though rules lobbying and intense preparation (Oreca helped that program, remember)--in to position, and then capitalized when opportunity presented itself, but they had to put themselves there to begin with.

In LM '08 and '10, Audi ran a relentless pace that kept Peugeot up on the tap, and if it wasn't for that, perhaps the rod failures wouldn't have happened. But Peugeot gambled on that and lost, in much the same way that Audi gambled on trying to make the R18 areo efficient with that greenhouse. You have to gamble sometimes in racing to get ahead, and it's risk vs reward, and the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward. Peugeot lost LM '10 because they wanted to win, and it was just a step too far. Audi had issues outside of LM last year because they wanted to win LM, and depending on one's POV, Audi may've won the battle, but lost the war in the ILMC to get that LM win, or they saw LM as the war in '11, and won that war.

At the end of the day, we can have the benefit of hindsight and we can run down all the wouldas, couldas and shouldas, but the final result is the final result, and none of us can change that.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 19:42 (Ref:3021597)   #2557
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Who cares if it was innovative or not? It was faster and last time I checked that's all that counts in racing. Audi's problem is that they want to be over-innovative all the time.

Look at the initial R15, it was simply way too complicated to set up and thus largely a failure. Audi tends to overthink things instead of being purely results-driven.

That worked for them when there was no competition but the faults in their approached showed when there was somebody giving them hell. Even the R18 is fundamentally flawed with its visibility issues.

You can spin it as you want, Audi's head to head results against Peugeot are quite pathetic and unfortunately they won't be getting the chance to correct it. The stat of Peugeot going out unbeaten against them outside Le Mans since Sebring 2009 (!) will be in the history books forever.

I think Toyota is wise enough to have observed this very closely, if you pressure Audi enough they will make mistakes. Both on track and in terms of design.
Your first sentence proves how ignorant you are lol.
Audi CARES if it's innovative and thats why they race. They use Le Mans as a way to test new technologies and design philosophies. It's not about just building a fast car like Peugeot approached it. Its about looking at rules and regulations as a way to get creative and push the boundaries.
Thats what the ACO and fans like to see.
Thats why the R18 has gotten much more press and better recognition than the 908 EVEN THOUGH the 908 had a better record.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 20:21 (Ref:3021607)   #2558
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Your first sentence proves how ignorant you are lol.
Audi CARES if it's innovative and thats why they race. They use Le Mans as a way to test new technologies and design philosophies. It's not about just building a fast car like Peugeot approached it. Its about looking at rules and regulations as a way to get creative and push the boundaries.
Thats what the ACO and fans like to see.
Thats why the R18 has gotten much more press and better recognition than the 908 EVEN THOUGH the 908 had a better record.
lol right, Audi only cares about the cars being innovative, they don't want to win. The boardroom told them it's fine to not win a race against Peugeot in 2 1/2 years if only the cars are innovative enough

And the R18 didn't get more press and recognition than the 908, spending more money on advertising doesn't exactly count as recognition. Audi is just busier pushing their stuff down people's throats (see the Nürburgring 24h sponsoring).

This kind of arrogant attitude is why so many people despise Audi. They're unpleasant losers (see the PLM), if they lose they complain about the competition or come up with bull**** excuses (like Ullrich's claim that Audi didn't work on any aero improvements for the R18 during the season which was a straight up lie).

The same thing will happen once Toyota gets competitive. Then the rules will be at fault or Toyota has an unfair advantage with the Hybrid technology or whatever... it's always the same with them.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 20:26 (Ref:3021608)   #2559
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lol right, Audi only cares about the cars being innovative, they don't want to win. The boardroom told them it's fine to not win a race against Peugeot in 2 1/2 years if only the cars are innovative enough

And the R18 didn't get more press and recognition than the 908, spending more money on advertising doesn't exactly count as recognition. Audi is just busier pushing their stuff down people's throats (see the Nürburgring 24h sponsoring).

This kind of arrogant attitude is why so many people despise Audi. They're unpleasant losers (see the PLM), if they lose they complain about the competition or come up with bull**** excuses (like Ullrich's claim that Audi didn't work on any aero improvements for the R18 during the season which was a straight up lie).

The same thing will happen once Toyota gets competitive. Then the rules will be at fault or Toyota has an unfair advantage with the Hybrid technology or whatever... it's always the same with them.
Wow you are special.

YOU "Acid09" are one of the most arrogant people on the board

You have a case of the Peugeot superiority complex but point the finger at Audi fans-

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Old 4 Feb 2012, 20:31 (Ref:3021612)   #2560
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This kind of arrogant attitude is why so many people despise Audi. They're unpleasant losers (see the PLM), if they lose they complain about the competition or come up with bull**** excuses (like Ullrich's claim that Audi didn't work on any aero improvements for the R18 during the season which was a straight up lie).

The same thing will happen once Toyota gets competitive. Then the rules will be at fault or Toyota has an unfair advantage with the Hybrid technology or whatever... it's always the same with them.
It's more of a recent phenomenon, prior to Peugeot getting involved, Audi were still quite likeable, but the Peugeot run and gun style seemed to rub off on them, and them blaming everyone under the sun for their troubles (it really p*ssed me off at Le Mans with Kauffman getting tossed and Audi essentially calling GT drivers losers).

The Dumas-Montagny incident highlighted it imo, Ullrich's nonense afterwards was beyond unprofessional. Let's be honest, they had it handed to them during the season.

I do expect Audi to start slinging nonsense if Toyota are competitive, like they have some god given right to have everything on their terms...
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 20:34 (Ref:3021613)   #2561
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It's more of a recent phenomenon, prior to Peugeot getting involved, Audi were still quite likeable, but the Peugeot run and gun style seemed to rub off on them, and them blaming everyone under the sun for their troubles (it really p*ssed me off at Le Mans with Kauffman getting tossed and Audi essentially calling GT drivers losers).

I do expect Audi to start slinging nonsense if Toyota are competitive, like they have some god given right to have everything on their terms...
This just keeps getting better!

You honestly believe Kauffman didn't commit a driving error
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 20:42 (Ref:3021614)   #2562
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This just keeps getting better!

You honestly believe Kauffman didn't commit a driving error
No, it's called staying on the racing line, as all GT drivers are told to do at ALL the time, though it seems when it comes to factory teams, the rules change.

Where was Kauffman supposed to go, onto the marbles off line and put himself into the wall? He said it himself, he couldn't see where the Audi was for starters, LED's plus floodlights don't really help the cause. Rocky made a stupid decision and it cost him. If you really want to have a dig at Rob, it was a racing incident. He did nothing wrong.

However, on a slightly different note, no matter how much I criticise Audi for their conduct; I do appreciate what they've done for endurance racing as a whole, they had no reason to continue pouring in resources when they had no competition yet they did.

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Old 4 Feb 2012, 21:20 (Ref:3021628)   #2563
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A win is a win.

4 wins are 4 wins.

Whether wins fell into laps is completely immaterial. You can't quote 'the history books' and then pick and choose your stats.

As I say, Peugeot would have traded wins probably on a ratio of 5:1 or more for another Le Mans. The history books will show a 20% success rate, that's about an F grade to me.

Nonsense? Not to me - clear as day to me.
And I'm willing to bet Peugeot would have traded their 2010 Sebring win, 2009/2010/2011 Petit Le Mans wins, as well as countless ILMC/LMS victories and championships for just one or two more Le Mans wins.

But, at the end of the day, the 908 program was incredible when you consider how fast the car was from day 1 and how they evolved a similar design over 5 years and were the fastest nearly everywhere they showed up despite the "latest and greatest" from the Audi camp. It's just a damn shame about 2008 and 2010 Le Mans. But at least they managed to squeeze in a win in 2009 in dominating fashion. At least Peugeot fans don't have to deal with the same level of frustration other Pescarolo fans and I still have to deal with over the 2005 race.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 21:32 (Ref:3021633)   #2564
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No, it's called staying on the racing line, as all GT drivers are told to do at ALL the time, though it seems when it comes to factory teams, the rules change.

Where was Kauffman supposed to go, onto the marbles off line and put himself into the wall? He said it himself, he couldn't see where the Audi was for starters, LED's plus floodlights don't really help the cause. Rocky made a stupid decision and it cost him. If you really want to have a dig at Rob, it was a racing incident. He did nothing wrong.
It was a racing incident but Kauffman did something I hadn't seen during the race (or qualifying and practise for that matter) before. All GT cars always take the outside line when a prototype closes in on them in that kink, all of them. If he had done the same thing nothing would have happened.

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This kind of arrogant attitude is why so many people despise Audi. They're unpleasant losers (see the PLM), if they lose they complain about the competition or come up with bull**** excuses (like Ullrich's claim that Audi didn't work on any aero improvements for the R18 during the season which was a straight up lie).
Objectively one could say that for both sides, take Gene's ridiculous blocking at last year's Le Mans as an example. Peugeot and Audi are both big competitors and both have their pleasant and unpleasant side.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 21:48 (Ref:3021637)   #2565
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It's all kicked off in the Audi thread. Shame it's just rehashes of old boring arguments.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 21:51 (Ref:3021640)   #2566
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I thought we were on break from the racing season and there was no red mist in sight. Seems as if I was wrong, Le Mans-2011-spec red mist still seems to be on the minds of people.

So is the hybrid system driving the front wheels or the back wheels? Braking energy recovery or exhaust heat recovery?
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 22:30 (Ref:3021652)   #2567
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It was a racing incident but Kauffman did something I hadn't seen during the race (or qualifying and practise for that matter) before. All GT cars always take the outside line when a prototype closes in on them in that kink, all of them. If he had done the same thing nothing would have happened.
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It's all kicked off in the Audi thread. Shame it's just rehashes of old boring arguments.
I don't see how he could have gone wide that late in the race with marbles and dirt covering the rest of the track, it just annoys me when people are so quick to rip the driving standards of the GT guys and totally ignore those of the factory prototype dudes.

But that aside, apologies for jacking the thread with this nonsense from last year.
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Old 5 Feb 2012, 12:03 (Ref:3021773)   #2568
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This all got started I believe when some suggested that Toyota would just be pushovers this year, which I don't think is the plan, then it's degenerated to the old Audi vs Peugeot arguments over sportsmanship vs gainsmanship, a win is a win, and who'd give up what in favor of what. Sort of irrelevant now, as we can't change history, and Peugeot is gone, whether rightfully or wrongfully or indifferently is in the eye of the beholder, but we can't change that or history.

As for TMG being pushovers, I don't believe that's their intention, but they're also realistic, and 2012 will be a big time building year for them, and entering more WEC races can only help them, because it may be a bit of "testing" in public, but it's testing in realistic conditions, something that threw Audi a curve with the R15 and with some of the things with the R18. The only thing that they're missing out on is Sebring, and that has been instrumental in developing Audi and Peugeot's yearly LM assaults. How that may effect Toyota is an unknown right now, but Peugeot nearly getting their 908's destroyed there and it letting them or Audi know of hints of weakness made their LM runs much more effective, which is why Audi have tested there so often the past couple of years, and why Peugeot have done private testing there, too, including the session that they were at once the withdraw decision was handed down.

But I did try and break the Audi vs Peugeot animosity by asking a technical question about the R18:

Quote:
As for the R18, any more speculation about it's front suspension maybe being a pushrod or pullrod system (the TS030 uses pushrods all around). The Ferrari F2012 uses pullrods all around to lower the CG, but the big rumor is that it's to help out with getting the front tires to work better with the chassis.

If Audi is running a pullrod suspension, could that be a motivation, since it took them a while to get the front tires to work the way the wanted to. However, with the R18's weight distribution and its zero-keel nose, would the question of pushrod vs pullrod matter?
I do have more to add, since the TS030 is believed to be running a inerter/J-damper on its front suspension. Could the R18 be running pullrods, or could they be running a front suspension set up with pushrods like TMG are using, as the TS030 is running a pushrod layout (unknown with the R18) to keep them as close to the nose as possible to reduce drag? If Audi are running pushrods up front, they've modified them so they can lie within the nosebox and not need fairings like on the old R18. Anyone have any inferences, or do we have to wait until late this month when the R18H breaks cover to the public? And if Audi may be running an interter, we might have to wait and figure that out on our own.
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Old 5 Feb 2012, 13:36 (Ref:3021803)   #2569
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And I'm willing to bet Peugeot would have traded their 2010 Sebring win, 2009/2010/2011 Petit Le Mans wins, as well as countless ILMC/LMS victories and championships for just one or two more Le Mans wins.

But, at the end of the day, the 908 program was incredible when you consider how fast the car was from day 1 and how they evolved a similar design over 5 years and were the fastest nearly everywhere they showed up despite the "latest and greatest" from the Audi camp. It's just a damn shame about 2008 and 2010 Le Mans. But at least they managed to squeeze in a win in 2009 in dominating fashion. At least Peugeot fans don't have to deal with the same level of frustration other Pescarolo fans and I still have to deal with over the 2005 race.

Exactly so.

As I said, I've never been in any real danger of being descibed as an Audi fan, but I think some of us need to be a little careful that we don't allow sheer anti-Audi (or anti-anyone else for that matter) bias to seriously skew our perceptions......

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Old 5 Feb 2012, 15:20 (Ref:3021832)   #2570
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chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!
And of course, us as fans have to be realistic. The "romantic hero" type of stories like Rondeau in '80 are obviously the stuff that legends are made of.

But with the big factory era where even when there was no "factory" Audis at LM, Audi money and technical assistance was undeniably present, and when Audi came back full force, and with Peugeot and now Toyota engaging them in hot pursuit to be the king of the hill at LM and elsewhere, sadly the private teams get pushed aside as far as promotional concerns, coverage, and even recognition by the press and even the sanctioning bodies.

At least we can look back at the days of the late '70s and early '80s and the mid '90s when privateers had a shot at winning, as well as the mid '80s to early '90s, the mid to late '90s and from '06-present with the big factories engaging in combat.

And not to play boss or be pedantic, but this is the Audi R18 thread, after all, and we do have stuff that we undeniably wonder about with the "new" car. So may we try and get back to discussing that instead of who did what, why, and letting it degenerate into an argument that we've had in one form or another previously, at least until Audi and Toyota face off
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Old 5 Feb 2012, 17:15 (Ref:3021883)   #2571
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And not to play boss or be pedantic, but this is the Audi R18 thread, after all, and we do have stuff that we undeniably wonder about with the "new" car. So may we try and get back to discussing that instead of who did what, why, and letting it degenerate into an argument that we've had in one form or another previously, at least until Audi and Toyota face off
Yep, sounds sensible to me. Let it be so.......
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Old 5 Feb 2012, 18:15 (Ref:3021906)   #2572
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chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!
And hopefully it will be done since I've been trying to ask a question/get clarifications or opinions on a point, and that is a technician point.

In my a couple of my previous posts, I have asked about it, but to summarize, could the "new" R18 be running pullrods on the front suspension, or running a pushrod arrangement similar to the TS030? Of course, I asked about if the Zero-keel tub would be a deciding factor and about the possiblity of the R18 using some type of inerter type damper up front, etc.

Let's move on from the somewhat off topic banter that's dominated the past few pages and put it aside for a while, at least. Let us at least wait until Spa in May and let things play out for a while before we condemn anyone
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Old 6 Feb 2012, 09:31 (Ref:3022052)   #2573
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Steptoe should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSteptoe should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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But, seriously, I think Audi has a pretty good shot at taking a 1-2-3-4 at Le Mans this year. It'll be hard to get everything lined up perfectly for four cars (especially two with the new hybrids), but if they can pull their heads out of their arses, I think they have a pretty good shot at things. Toyota is definitely a wildcard, but they have a lot to prove still.
Its all a bit of an unknown till final ACO rules are produced but from the latest press release it would appear that the hybrids have to run front wheels to put the power down "Energy can be released to the front wheels but only above 120 km/h. Safety measures concerning the specific braking requirements for hybrid engines have also been defined. " thats about the only ruling I've seen. This could all change though ...
That said I don't know the rules but bar a weight penalty (drive system etc) could the Audis run effectively 4 Diesels and just turn OFF the 'Hybrid' system ?? If there is no ruling that it has to be working at the finish then what have you got to loose, with an already proven diesel engine .If so I agree with AGD we will probably see a top 4 Audi finish .
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Old 6 Feb 2012, 13:16 (Ref:3022136)   #2574
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Its all a bit of an unknown till final ACO rules are produced but from the latest press release it would appear that the hybrids have to run front wheels to put the power down "Energy can be released to the front wheels but only above 120 km/h. Safety measures concerning the specific braking requirements for hybrid engines have also been defined. " thats about the only ruling I've seen. This could all change though ...
Mike has found that the December draft of the 2012 regs is indeed the final draft.
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Old 8 Feb 2012, 07:54 (Ref:3022994)   #2575
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AGD should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAGD should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Treluyer is unsure of his plans aside from Spa and Le Mans.

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