Come on, guys

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 09:49 (Ref:317441)

You can't blame Ferrari for Rubens not winning in Canada. 2 stops was the quicker option. If it hadn't been for that safety car incident (thankyou ever so much, Villain-oove) he'd have been a lot higher up. It was, in fact, his best and only chance of winning. Qualifying showed that he didn't have the pace to beat Schumi or the Williams double-act on a 1-stopper. Obviously, it was a riskier option, Canada being run like a CART race, but when you've a chance of winning vs no chance of winning, which would you take?

Glen · 20 Jun 2002, 09:51 (Ref:317445)

Indeed, we have to remember that his race was severely compromised from Saturday onwards.

Red · 20 Jun 2002, 09:56 (Ref:317451)

Of course they can.

As for the "which would you take" the answer is pretty easy. The one that Ferrari did not use and "of course they can blame Ferrari for Rubens not winning"

Valve Bounce · 20 Jun 2002, 10:01 (Ref:317452)

OK, I'll throw the curve ball: if Rubens pitted when JPM did, wouldn't Rubens have won the race?

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

Red · 20 Jun 2002, 10:05 (Ref:317456)

No.

(what are you trying to prove VB? That actually the 2 stoppwer could've possibly been good?

Hmmm....

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 10:07 (Ref:317457)

The computer said 2 stops was faster. Who are we to argue with the all-seeing computer race calculator?

Jukebox · 20 Jun 2002, 10:18 (Ref:317463)

Rubens is one of those guy who is not consistent and he's not that type of guy who can overtake that many cars from behind. Montoya and Michael in the other had have these qualities and evenm if Rubens were to pit stop like MOntoya did, i wouldn't expect him to excel like Montoya did.

Rubens is fast when he has form but he's not of WDC breed.

Valve Bounce · 20 Jun 2002, 10:19 (Ref:317464)

Thre is a theory that if JPM's car had not broken he could have won - going the one step further, Rubens car was faster than JPM's.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 10:20 (Ref:317466)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
Rubens is fast when he has form but he's not of WDC breed.

Agreed. Sounds a bit like Alesi, really...

Jukebox · 20 Jun 2002, 10:27 (Ref:317474)

Ruben's car was faster than Montoya's car but DC's car was a lot slower than those two definitely. Didn't we see Ruben trailing behind DC unable to overtake him?

Red · 20 Jun 2002, 10:29 (Ref:317476)

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Thre is a theory that if JPM's [...]

Indeed, but that's why it is only a "theory"

Valve Bounce · 20 Jun 2002, 10:32 (Ref:317477)

Put forward by Patrick Head.

Of course, Rubens couldn't possibly have won - he would have to pass MSch's ailing Ferrari

and that was never on.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

Red · 20 Jun 2002, 10:35 (Ref:317479)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
Didn't we see Ruben trailing behind DC unable to overtake him?

Good point. So actually if Rubens pitted in the same time as Montoya probably he came out behind Kimi and Ralf and probably ahead of Pablo and probably that "pass of the century" never occured and probably Rubens lost much more time behind Kimi and/or and/or Ralf and/or Pablo and/or David and probably the theory that "Pablo won" wouldn't emerge (no, not that one

)

PS: VB The Schumacher's Ferrari was "ailing" only because he was leading comfortably. He WAS able to defend position.

PPS: Oh yes, put forward by Patrick Head.

With all due respect, but I do not always take his statements seriously.

f1manoz · 20 Jun 2002, 10:39 (Ref:317482)

Whether Rubens could have won or not is one of the billions of 'What ifs' that take place in F1. He didn't win. That's that.

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 10:39 (Ref:317484)

Well, he did, kinda... only DC was so determined "Thou Shalt Not Pass" he outbreaked himself as well holding Rubens off. I thought that was rather unfair, actually, and would have liked to see Rubens stay ahead. I mean, if DC cut the chicane too, how could he have got any more of an advantage than DC?

Still, DC couldn't pass Bernoldi, I seem to remember, so let's not be too hard on Rubino!

Jukebox · 20 Jun 2002, 11:54 (Ref:317540)

Quote:

Still, DC couldn't pass Bernoldi, I seem to remember, so let's not be too hard on Rubino!

Don't get me wrong Rambo...i am a Ferrari fan and i welcome you as being a Ferrari fan as well, in due time you'll notice we are outnumbered but i don't support Rubens as well. The track in Canada is one of the easiest track to overtake and the one in Monaco is not suitable for the modern Formula1 cars.

Red..then Rubens would be hated by Montoya fans

J.McClane · 20 Jun 2002, 13:55 (Ref:317637)

Quote:

Originally posted by Rambo
Well, he did, kinda... only DC was so determined "Thou Shalt Not Pass" he outbreaked himself as well holding Rubens off. I thought that was rather unfair, actually, and would have liked to see Rubens stay ahead.

Unfair???
It's called "racin'" somethin' we don't see much of in F1 anymore, when there should be plenty of it about.

Glen · 20 Jun 2002, 14:03 (Ref:317640)

Not especially unfair - Rubens was neither shrewd enough to see it coming and make the turn himself (no matter how untidily he made the turn he would have inherited the position) nor sufficiently quick to get back on his tail and repeat the challenge in the final couple of laps.

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 14:42 (Ref:317655)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox

Don't get me wrong Rambo...i am a Ferrari fan and i welcome you as being a Ferrari fan as well, in due time you'll notice we are outnumbered but i don't support Rubens as well. The track in Canada is one of the easiest track to overtake and the one in Monaco is not suitable for the modern Formula1 cars.

Red..then Rubens would be hated by Montoya fans

I'm not a fan of Rubens at all! I was just having a dig at DC.

But it was the same as a couple of times when Montoya has said, "no matter how late you break I'm going to break later, even if it means we both go on the grass". Racing is great, when when passing is made impossible, what's the point of racing?

I dunno... Anyway, Spain is the hardest circuit to pass on, even harder than Monaco. There just aren't any opportunities, not in an F1.

freud · 20 Jun 2002, 17:20 (Ref:317728)

Quote:

Originally posted by Rambo
Well, he did, kinda... only DC was so determined "Thou Shalt Not Pass" he outbreaked himself as well holding Rubens off. I thought that was rather unfair, actually, and would have liked to see Rubens stay ahead. I mean, if DC cut the chicane too, how could he have got any more of an advantage than DC?

What BS??

DC didnt break any

FIA law. He just did a damn good job of holding Rubens.

Jukebox · 20 Jun 2002, 18:24 (Ref:317766)

Yeah...got to hand it to DC, he's really good at holding his position and covering the racing line. Too bad the Macs are not that competitive. Would love to see DC drives the F2002..i can only wish

I have nothin but loads of praises for him

freud · 20 Jun 2002, 20:01 (Ref:317815)

Yeah agree with you Juke. I completely fail to understand the logic behind criticism of DC. He's won a race in that

truck and I was just thrilled to see him grab the 2nd place at Canada. Its just mindless to criticize DC for holding off Rubens. I am sure that if Michael had done the same instead of DC, Rambo would be jumping up and down with joy and writing verses and poems on the brilliance of TGF and how TGF managed to get a podium in a truck!

Yoong Montoya · 20 Jun 2002, 20:17 (Ref:317826)

Here's the big 'what if':

If Montoya hadn't retired, and if Ferrari had called in Barrichello at the right time, Barrichello would have been second and Montoya third in the closing stages, I think. But Michael had some sort of trouble and was running slow on the last lap. Even Ferrari couldn't justify holding Barrichello back behind Michael and letting Montoya pass both for the win. Ferrari would have had to order Michael to let Barrichello pass to prevent a Williams win.

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 20:58 (Ref:317856)

Freud - DC *didn't* hold Rubens off. Rubens passed him. But because he overshot the chicane, he dropped back again. But if DC had overshot the chicane, and Rubens stayed on the track (in fact he took no more kerb than Monty regurlary did every other lap) then DC would have gained an unfair advantage. There's no difference between cutting a chicane to pass someone and cutting a chicane to prevent it - it's gaining an unfair advantage either way.

They both 'broke' the rules, so neither gained any more advantage than the other. The reason Rubens dropped back is the same reason he's getting pushed about by Ferrari - he obviously doesn't have the necessary killer instinct.

But I'm sure you'll argue with me; you've disagreed with everything I've ever said.

freud · 20 Jun 2002, 21:05 (Ref:317864)

Wrong!! Rambo, get your facts right. Rubens NEVER passed DC... OK!

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