[Team] Haas: Gene Haas of NASCAR attempting to start F1 team

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Casper

NASCAR is just as hard if not harder to be a competitor in as F1, 38 weekends in a year and they run very close together which is one thing F1 does not do as a rule. I think he knows what is involved, he was in motorsport before a lot of people here were even breathing.

There is absolutely no chance that NASCAR is harder than F1 from a team's POV. Dave very succintly state why that is. old man too.

Hendrick has a space age organisation and I'd have confidence in them. Penske too. But everyone else would need to almost start from scratch. Just in time processes on worldwide basis would be far more rigorous.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by bella

course you couldn't. that's part of the deal with having a single make series - the costs for developing the chassis and a small profit (after all, it's a business not a charity) are mostly recouped (sp) through the cost of spare parts. back when gp2 was in its first few seasons one team was caught manufacturing their own spare bits for the car after a couple of rear wing failures. they were publicly shamed and kicked out of an event, and quite rightly because evidently they couldn't produce stuff to the same standards.

until you have another company producing a car there's not going to be any competition.

That wasn't the case when IndyCar adopted the IR5 as the sole chassis, teams could go to a 3rd party, which is is why the smaller teams were unhappy with the deal with Dallara over the DW12.

[rwintle]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It wasn't just the cost of the parts but you couldn't go to a 3rd party supplier, just Dallara.

I'd forgotten that aspect, thanks.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

There is absolutely no chance that NASCAR is harder than F1 from a team's POV. Dave very succintly state why that is. old man too.

The NASCAR regulations have been in place, at least the general principles, for a long time. Over the years such technical regulations get honed to an ever greater degree so that very small changes to a car make a difference and understanding what is required becomes much more difficult. I make no pretence to be an expert in either set of regulations but I know that the more sophisticated the specification the harder it is to gain an advantage and for new teams the harder it is to stay competitive.

Running as close as they do in Nascar must make the aero package critical in very different ways to the F1 aero package, even given the totally different shapes of the cars. I believe therefore that it would be just as hard for a regular F1 engineer or even team manager to come to NASCAR as the other way round.

[bella]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That wasn't the case when IndyCar adopted the IR5 as the sole chassis, teams could go to a 3rd party, which is is why the smaller teams were unhappy with the deal with Dallara over the DW12.

that's pretty much out of step with how it's always been in single make formulae in europe, easily for the past decade. but i can imagine it was a bit of a shock to the system for the indycar teams.

[old man]

Originally Posted by bella

that's pretty much out of step with how it's always been in single make formulae in europe, easily for the past decade. but i can imagine it was a bit of a shock to the system for the indycar teams.

In many European single chassis classes the regulations preclude repairing bodywork for example "on safety grounds"

[bella]

given it's usually made of what appears to be cornish wafers for cost and weight saving reasons in the first place that's not necessarily a bad thing can you imagine the legal case if a team repaired a part within the rules and that part failed, causing a serious or fatal accident?

anyway, like i said before, spares are only expensive when your drivers aren't very good and you go through an awful lot of them

[old man]

This puts an end to lots of speculation, tends to answer the question about him knowing the game, I admit to being impressed.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...884.1373558528

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by old man

This puts an end to lots of speculation, tends to answer the question about him knowing the game, I admit to being impressed.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...884.1373558528

Any chance of a summary for those who live on the wrong side of the paywall?

Richard

[GTRMagic]

HaasF1 Hires Chief Designer

[JeremySmith]

So a few days ago I dreamt that the Hass car would be yellow with the teams name in black letters, pure coonsedence of course ...

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So a few days ago I dreamt that the Hass car would be yellow with the teams name in black letters, pure coonsedence of course ...

Maybe you drank the same Kool-Aid as Mr Haas

[steve_r]

<putting 2 & 2 together, and probably coming up with 2.764121012, scuttles off to find lead sponsers who would be yellow>

DHL - nah

Pennzoil - hmmm...

[old man]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Any chance of a summary for those who live on the wrong side of the paywall?

Richard

Briefly:
Gunther Steiner in charge, ex Ford / Jaguar F1
Refurbishing Marrusia factory for UK assembly base
Dallara building chassis to Haas design, ch designer in residence at Dallara (Rob Taylor) + 50 engineers working there and at Ferrari as required
PU and gearbox by Ferrari + rear suspension mounts, front suspension outsourced with help from Ferrari (on all outsourcing)
Unlikely to actually run before this time next year as Ferrari must get theirs done first
Has the ex Wirth supercomputer in the UK factory and lots of CFD specialists available in USA.
Expects to 75% in house in 3 years

Think that covers main points

[Mike Harte]

Just to pick up on a couple of points; I don't think that Haas should possibly be praised for obtaining Nick Wirth's super computer.

If memory serves me correctly, Wirth used this computer and CFD to produce the first two car designs for what was then Virgin, and the second year's car was no better or faster than the first one. Virgin then parted with him and his computer, and the cars improved from that point onwards.

Next, there seems to be an over reliance on Ferrari, and sourcing parts from them and having to rely on them to provide them in a timely manner. Firstly, what happens if Ferrari are running behind schedule on their own cars? It would seem as though Haas will just be left twiddling his thumbs until the works' car is up and running before Ferrari will turn their attention to working on Haas' bits. Secondly, they are totally reliant on Ferrari actually designing and sourcing parts that will be fit for purpose, as Haas will have no control over that side of car.

[steve_r]

I would rather rely on outsourcing to a well known F1 team rather than anyone else. Ferrari will be paid for producing the goods, and will therefore have budget and presumably the capacity to do so. I see no reason for concern. Have Ferrari ever let down any other teams who they have supplied with engines and other parts over the years?

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Maybe you drank the same Kool-Aid as Mr Haas

Could well be mate ...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by old man

Think that covers main points

Thank you for the summary.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Just to pick up on a couple of points; I don't think that Haas should possibly be praised for obtaining Nick Wirth's super computer.

If memory serves me correctly, Wirth used this computer and CFD to produce the first two car designs for what was then Virgin, and the second year's car was no better or faster than the first one. Virgin then parted with him and his computer, and the cars improved from that point onwards.

Hard to say. I am not an expert, but any CFD operation is likely to have three components... Hardware, Software and Engineers. He likely bought the first, maybe the second and has his own for the third. It's just a tool so any bad CFD Juju will be of their own making.

Richard

[Mekola]

Also hear that the cars will be painted yellow...

[old man]

They should be white with a double blue stipe!

[wdave0]

[QUOTE=Mike Harte;3501336]Just to pick up on a couple of points; I don't think that Haas should possibly be praised for obtaining Nick Wirth's super computer.

If memory serves me correctly, Wirth used this computer and CFD to produce the first two car designs for what was then Virgin, and the second year's car was no better or faster than the first one. Virgin then parted with him and his computer, and the cars improved from that point onwards.
>>>



The problem was that Wirth used CFD exclusively, no wind tunnel or other physical input for the designs so any disparity between computer model and reality was not corrected.

[bjohnsonsmith]

[QUOTE=wdave0;3501959]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Just to pick up on a couple of points; I don't think that Haas should possibly be praised for obtaining Nick Wirth's super computer.

If memory serves me correctly, Wirth used this computer and CFD to produce the first two car designs for what was then Virgin, and the second year's car was no better or faster than the first one. Virgin then parted with him and his computer, and the cars improved from that point onwards.
>>>



The problem was that Wirth used CFD exclusively, no wind tunnel or other physical input for the designs so any disparity between computer model and reality was not corrected.

Maybe the issue wasn't necessarily down to the computer or CFD but to Wirth.

[wdave0]

[QUOTE=bjohnsonsmith;3501966]

Originally Posted by wdave0

Maybe the issue wasn't necessarily down to the computer or CFD but to Wirth.

Exactly, a proper balance would have resulted in a much better car, as in all the other teams except those with faulty wind tunnels (Ferrari eg).

[climb]

[QUOTE=wdave0;3501970]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Exactly, a proper balance would have resulted in a much better car, as in all the other teams except those with faulty wind tunnels (Ferrari eg).

Ferrari's tunnel was not faulty, Toyota's backup WT was, as well as Ferrari's aerodynamicists' brains

[bjohnsonsmith]

[QUOTE=climb;3505489]

Originally Posted by wdave0

Ferrari's tunnel was not faulty, Toyota's backup WT was, as well as Ferrari's aerodynamicists' brains

This post, "Exactly, a proper balance would have resulted in a much better car, as in all the other teams except those with faulty wind tunnels (Ferrari eg).", was posted by wdave0, not me.