Audi LMP1 Discussion

[MihokS5]

From MP's Twitter:
"Will be a busy few weeks for the Audi R18 and one 15++. Cars flying to Florida this week. Test at Sebring next week, then on to Homestead"

[chernaudi]

Could this be the serious testing that Mr. McNish referred to. Frighting the cars to Sebring and Homestead seems to be rather serious.

We might see if Audi has any non-LM aero kit built up for the R18, and hopefully we can make something of the ++ mods to the R15: is it "++", or "+-", as in status quo.

And I wonder how the two cars will compare if the R15 is pegged back to 2011 power levels.

And is there any word that this is just a big shake down/speed test (since they'll run on the Homestead oval), or could this be the first endurance test.

I hope someone gets some shots...

[TF110]

Am I the only one who thinks that the cars aren't going to be slower? I understand that the engines are smaller, but they're that way in other forms of racing, yet still make lots of power. And being diesel's I'm sure the torque will still be there as well. Perhaps better efficiency in other areas will allow for the cars to be as fast or faster. Better aero, maybe better transmissions, who knows.

[chernaudi]

At shorter tracks, they might be as fast as the older cars because straightline speed isn't as much at a premium as at Le Mans. Maybe we'll see with the Audi R15 that Audi will have at Sebring next week along with the R18. The R15 will be down about 120-150bhp from last year, and should roughly be equal to the R18 in that area.

Speaking of that test, it seems that Audi has Sebring rented for all next week--could this be a set up for an endurance test attempt for the R18?

[TF110]

So we know for sure that's the power these things are going to produce? I have some doubts, I bet they aren't going to be down on the power by that much. Unless the R15 made 700hp, I'd say the R18 will be close to 600hp, which is what they were supposed to make in the first place, am I correct? I donno, I'm just skeptical that they'll lose that much power. They already cut back the wing size a few years ago, now it's engine size... why though? They will be as fast in a year, it's pointless to me.

[gwyllion]

Officially the ACO targets 520 bhp for LMP1 and 420 bhp for LMP2 with the new rules.

In practice LMP1 engines will probably produce up to 550 bhp, which is 150 bhp less than what they made in 2010.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Officially the ACO targets 520 bhp for LMP1 and 420 bhp for LMP2 with the new rules.

In practice LMP1 engines will probably produce up to 550 bhp, which is 150 bhp less than what they made in 2010.

But we can be certain that the real power figures is +600bhp

[gwyllion]

You are too optimistic. The restrictor size will be reduced by 25-30%. This corresponds with going from 700 bhp to 540-560 bhp.

The Porsche 3.4 DFI V8 was said to produce 540 bhp with a similar restrictor size.

[chernaudi]

Still, that's similar to what the Audi R8 made in the ALMS from 2003-06, and air restrictor size doesn't effect torque, nor even with the diesels at least, did boost reduction to a significant degree. Displacement is what will get the job done there. And outside of Le Mans, the R8 generally got faster year after year in spite of that.

But a twin turbo V6 or V8 diesel will easily make about 550+ft/lbs of torque, which is similar to what the Audi and Bentley 3.6/4.0 TFSI V8s made. That might not be impressive compared to the old Audi V8, but against an NA V8 that makes maybe about half that torque, that's a big disadvantage.

Even the 2.0T 4s and 6s will be down quite a bit on torque due to displacement issues.

[Tim the Grey]

So then it's down to the likes of Judd Engines to MAKE a diesel?
If you are getting caned, you put up, or shut up. AMR claim that the ACO have done a proper job of balancing diesel vs petrol this year.

Who will know until they actually meet and race. THEN we might know. After all, sandbagging at Spa, to get a performance boost for LM, is all in the game!

[chernaudi]

And then there's the LM test--who knows how much Audi and Peugeot, and AMR for that matter, will sandbag there. However, with the Aston being an open car reportedly, one has to wonder if they're giving up more than engine equivalancy can gain them as the R18 and the 90X are closed cars, and Audi showed us how big the gap to the 908 in terms of straightline speed was as far as open vs closed at LM in the past.

At least with Audi and AMR, we'll know if V6s have what it takes for endurance racing.

And about the R18's tires. In theory, wider front tires should hydroplane more easily, but the Acura did wonders in the rain at PLM until the de Ferran car got taken out. And Nick Wirth said he was impressed with how the ARX-02 did in rain testing. Could the Audi R18, and the Pug 90x for that matter if it uses the same tires as the R18, do similary as well in the rain. And if so, would it be due to the tires, or weight distirbiution or suspension setup?

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And then there's the LM test--who knows how much Audi and Peugeot, and AMR for that matter, will sandbag there. However, with the Aston being an open car reportedly, one has to wonder if they're giving up more than engine equivalancy can gain them as the R18 and the 90X are closed cars, and Audi showed us how big the gap to the 908 in terms of straightline speed was as far as open vs closed at LM in the past.

At least with Audi and AMR, we'll know if V6s have what it takes for endurance racing.

And about the R18's tires. In theory, wider front tires should hydroplane more easily, but the Acura did wonders in the rain at PLM until the de Ferran car got taken out. And Nick Wirth said he was impressed with how the ARX-02 did in rain testing. Could the Audi R18, and the Pug 90x for that matter if it uses the same tires as the R18, do similary as well in the rain. And if so, would it be due to the tires, or weight distirbiution or suspension setup?

De Ferran was being lapped when he was hit by Field so am surprised anyone was impressed by the Acura speed at Petit Le Mans.

It is a package, not one single element but normally heavy rain it is better to have smaller tyres.

[chernaudi]

The track was bone dry by the time de Ferran had McNish's R15 bearing down on him--he blew by both Pugs when the track was fully wet and with standing water. Once it dried out, the diesels had the clear edge, but the 908's were a road block to the Acura in full wet conditions.

Was it because the Acura (and the R15s for that matter) were good in the wet, or were the 908s just that bad, considering that they didn't generally stuggle in the rain as much in 2010?

[Victor_RO]

http://twitter.com/#!/marshallpruett...00425191727104

Drivers of the new Audi R18 and the TT V6 HPD LMP2 engine have remarked their new power plants sound like Porsche 962s. Awesome.

Wow... sound from the diesel? And with 962 undertones? Has Baretzky had a knock on the head? Although proper sounds from the diesels aren't new, the Peugeot V12 last year was definitely a lot louder than in previous years and with a very distinct tone.

Really actually properly looking forward now to the first onboards from the diesel behemoths.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

http://twitter.com/#!/marshallpruett...00425191727104



Wow... sound from the diesel? And with 962 undertones? Has Baretzky had a knock on the head? Although proper sounds from the diesels aren't new, the Peugeot V12 last year was definitely a lot louder than in previous years and with a very distinct tone.

Really actually properly looking forward now to the first onboards from the diesel behemoths.

Sounds exciting for sure. I'm still wondering why Pruett hasn't released his tech article on the R18 along with more detailed driver impressions

[chernaudi]

Could be an issue with Speed not covering ALMS for 2011, even though they have the rights to Le Mans? They cover Indy Car on Speed.com, but Speed hasn't covered it on TV.

Either it's some delay, or he's helping Miller cover the Indy Car stuff because off all the crap coming out of there the past couple of weeks.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Although proper sounds from the diesels aren't new, the Peugeot V12 last year was definitely a lot louder than in previous years and with a very distinct tone,

You mean the siren song of a con-rod breaking?!

[chernaudi]

The issue that the 908 had was that they went for revs and top end power. Well, diesels don't rev (why they were given so many concessions in the first place--to give them power equal to gasoline engines so they could win at fast tracks like Le Mans where straightline speeds matter more than accelleration). Also, why did the 908 use a six speed gearbox? I think it had a lot to do with how it's torque was distributed throughout the rev range--which suggests that the Pugs were geared for top end power and that it hurt driveabilitly at low speeds (low-end torque, and maybe turbo lag--the Pugs always used 1st gear to get out of Mulsanne and Arnage, while Audi with a gear less always used second).

Doing what they did at LM in the quest for more RPM was simply a step too far. Especially as it seemed that the parts weren't 100% proven in an endurance test.

And I doubt that the exhaust will sound much like a Porsche boxer 6 turbo--I'll probably sound like the R10 and the R15, but has anyone heard the R18 on a track yet? Outside of Audi Sport, probably not.

Onboard though, that might be different--the R10 sounded like a flatcrank V8 onboard, the R15 a crossplane crank V8 with a bad exhaust system, and who knows with the R18 as of yet.

I guess that we should also hope for audio/video from the Sebring test for Audi this coming week.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by cmk

You mean the siren song of a con-rod breaking?!

No, actual engine noise. It was much more audible on the TV feed than in previous years. As for the R15's sound from onboard, I actually thought it sounded a tiny bit like a Dodge Viper's V10.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

http://twitter.com/#!/marshallpruett/status/28500425191727104



Wow... sound from the diesel? And with 962 undertones? Has Baretzky had a knock on the head? Although proper sounds from the diesels aren't new, the Peugeot V12 last year was definitely a lot louder than in previous years and with a very distinct tone.

Really actually properly looking forward now to the first onboards from the diesel behemoths.

As long as you have enough pressure inside the tail pipe you can make any sound you like... it can be engineered.

the biggest difference WAS( because now with GDI engines that will happen less) flames caming out of the tail pipes... petrol engines was/is loud because there is a considerable portion of combustible "excess" exhaust coming from the engine.. the reason they are so less efficient and have less torque.

diesel engine sound was an issue only because too many ppl protested... IMO it was instead quite refreshing(dont like noise)... but it can be easily engineered.

[Joe Taylor]

Originally Posted by hcl123

the biggest difference WAS( because now with GDI engines that will happen less) flames caming out of the tail pipes... petrol engines was/is loud because there is a considerable portion of combustible "excess" exhaust coming from the engine.. the reason they are so less efficient and have less torque.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The issue that the 908 had was that they went for revs and top end power. Well, diesels don't rev (why they were given so many concessions in the first place--to give them power equal to gasoline engines so they could win at fast tracks like Le Mans where straightline speeds matter more than accelleration). Also, why did the 908 use a six speed gearbox? I think it had a lot to do with how it's torque was distributed throughout the rev range--which suggests that the Pugs were geared for top end power and that it hurt driveabilitly at low speeds (low-end torque, and maybe turbo lag--the Pugs always used 1st gear to get out of Mulsanne and Arnage, while Audi with a gear less always used second).

Doing what they did at LM in the quest for more RPM was simply a step too far. Especially as it seemed that the parts weren't 100% proven in an endurance test.

You have this last part right... and Pug was more equipped for that with a transmission with 6 rations (audi 5), meaning was not only the fact of a closed car with better aeros that made the difference in the straights. Means a V12 is not a good choice for higher revs if you have endurance in mind(too heavy too much internal attrition).

You are wrong about acceleration. The higher the torque, meaning the higher the acceleration potential, the better for the long straights. In the 2 miles long straights diesel and petrol start at closely the same speed, but diesel has much more faster acceleration so that by middle of the the straight it already gained quite an advantage, that when upon in the last quarter of the length, that is when a petrol that revs much higher starts to catch on due to its higher POWER.. yet overall, even considering the higher power, petrol loses badly for diesel in those long straights...

Lets face it... when ppl argue that the diesel were so much "powerful" they where wrong.. the Aston Martin V12 engines had the HIGHER TOP "HP" of all in competition with close to 800bhp at ~11k RPM.. but they seldom use it because it means accelerated wear for the engine, more so because inspite of that fact, they could not even gain in the straights because of the difference in torque=acceleration.

as to the revs of the diesels... (i don't have a link), but tests showed that this kind of "race" diesels could same day achieve 8k RPM (from less than 6k today) consistently( meaning perhaps above 800bhp for 3.7l)... and the smaller, lighter and more balanced the engine more easy it will be to reach that...

Petrol had 1 century of "speed racing" use, and diesel (for real and only now in lemans) not even a decade, and had you told an engineer 10 years ago that a F1 engine would reach 20K RPM he would commend you to get committed to a mental institution!...

So it will be quite exiting( looking forward ) to see how this second generation of smaller "speed racing" diesels will perform. I don't expect the same kind of performance of last year, but they will not be far... and in 2012 the world ends = everybody starts to comprehend that if they want to win lemans, than diesel is the way.

[hcl123]

NOT an hybrid !

http://www.quattroholic.com/2011/01/...an-mcnish.html

http://www.quattroholic.com/2010/12/...-revealed.html



It seems that the R18 in 2011 will not have hybrid(electric) motorization

so it seems i was right all along... mentioning(don't want nothing) it only because it could be quite ironic!... been bashed, warned of topic, posts erased missing banned.. and now it COULD BE quite a topic what Audi pulls up!... by explaining why a diesel with only the engine ancillaries on electric motors is better than ACO hybrid motorization rules....

Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich. "No matter which form of energy recovery we may choose the key aspect for Audi – in motorsport as well as on the production side of the house – is that it provides a true advantage.”... perhaps what Audi calls "progressive electrification" is a wish that ACO falls to reason about hybrids!...

And McNish seems to confirm 65l fuel tanks in the 3th video of the interview in the link... so R18 is not hybrid ( http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...ations-lmp.pdf )... if it were it would have 63l and an quite an amount of controlling devices/apparatus capable of ruining the race to anyone daring to venture there.

[chernaudi]

Audi themselves said that the R18 in it's first year won't run a KERS system in their press release. So expect no KERS when it and the R15 are testing at Sebring next week. But then again, Audi have been very tight lipped about the R15 and the changes they want to make of it, and haven't said much about the R18 since it's launch over a month ago. They could be doing about anything, so lets hope for some photo or video and audio.

Speaking of which, there have been photos from the launch party that shows three holes blanked off on the side of the front fenders.

It seems more than just some basic areo stuff has carried over. It appears that it'll run a tab like dive plane like the R15 ran in LD trim, and might run more aggressive ones, maybe like the HD R15s.

However, if the lower diveplane takes the path I think it may, that won't leave much room for air to pass between upper/lower DPs, unless the R18 runs a small tab like the RS Spyder did.

Photo in question, look in particular at the tab mounted up, and the three holes behind it that have been blanked off:

http://www.fourtitude.com/gallery/ga...&dispsize=1024

Either that, or the R18's upper dive plane will have a lot of kick up to it, maybe more than the equivlant item from the R15.

[gwyllion]

FYI Audi confirms driver line-up for new Audi R18

Sebring:

• Dindo Capello/Tom Kristensen/Allan McNish
• Timo Bernhard/Romain Dumas/Mike Rockenfeller

Spa, Le Mans

• Dindo Capello/Tom Kristensen/Allan McNish
• Timo Bernhard/Romain Dumas/Mike Rockenfeller
• Marcel Fässler/André Lotterer/Benoît Treluyer

ILMC after Le Mans

• Tom Kristensen/Allan McNish
• Timo Bernhard/Marcel Fässler

If required, Audi can fall back on Porsche "factory" driver Romain Dumas to reinforce its squad at Road Atlanta.

The press release also confirms that the R15 will only be modified to comply with the 2011 regulations (i.e., smaller air restrictor/lower boost + smaller fuel tank):

For the opening round of the Intercontinental Le Mans Cup (ILMC) at Sebring (US state Florida) on March 19, Audi Sport Team Joest will compete with two Audi R15 TDI cars modified to comply with the new technical regulations.