Audi LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Or you should just stop with this speculation

Face it, Marshall Pruett was wrong with his report of wide front tyres on the R15.

As Mike pointed out, just read article 19 of the 2011 rules

Also read the latest press release of Audi: http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/experience/motorsport/motorsport-news.detail.2011~01~audi_confirms_driver.html

Unless what Mr. Boone says about the R15 is correct, Audi will have to do something to fix the R15's low speed front grip problems/inconsisitencies. Unless the R15 will have a huge straightline speed advantage--which in theory should be unlikely--the R15 should be uncompetitive in terms of speed as the ACO don't want the newer cars to be shown up by obsolecent machinery, especially with the R15 being a one off.

So what if Audi can't run the wider tires--the ACO can't stop them from tuning the suspension, which seems to be the source of the problems to begin with.

Of course, the R15, especially as it's now almost 3 years old and if it has it's issues rectified, should at least be as fast as the R18, as the R18 is early in it's test cycle, and the R15 has a full sprint package, while the R18's are in LM areo spec it seems--the tab dive planes instead of the larger twin set the likely have for the ILMC rounds, and the low wing/sloping fin points towards that.

Also, is it me, or does the R15 have a modified rear deck: The flourish on the end of the tail outboard of the wing endplates seems to be shorter than on the 2010 car, as there seems to be more endplate exposed in the side shot of the R15 (different shading of red on the deck and endplate may give that away)?

If that's the case, for a car that's supposed to have minimal changes, it seems that something may have.

Lets see in a few weeks time if Audi returns to Sebring, because the R15 may be still in 2010 spec (unlikely), which would hinder the relevance of this test, and the R18 and R15 seem to be polar opposites as far as aero specs.

But if the R15 is in 2011 specs and is faster than the R18, there may still be hope for Audi to be competitive at Sebring with the 90x, which little has been heard of that since one was written off in Dec.

And one more thing: under balance of performance, could Audi be allowed to run at 900kgs like other grandfather LMP1s, or will the R15 be stuck at 930kgs, possibly to counter what would likely still be a big torque advantage?

[Tim the Grey]

All things being equal, they cannot make it go faster, as the ACO want it to be 10-15 seconds a lap slower round LM.

Simple. 908 is quicker than 90X. ACO want to slow last year's cars, but who can say they have done so well enough?

This is the first time 2010 and 2011 front line LMP1s have been out together.

Plus, James is merely giving an impression, and it may be the R18 is hugely faster just doesn't LOOK fast?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, is it me, or does the R15 have a modified rear deck: The flourish on the end of the tail outboard of the wing endplates seems to be shorter than on the 2010 car, as there seems to be more endplate exposed in the side shot of the R15 (different shading of red on the deck and endplate may give that away)?

It is you. Why do you not understand that Audi has stopped the development of the R15

All their resources are allocated to the development of the R18.

So there is no new suspension, no wider front tyres, no new front diffuser, no new rear deck, ... for the R15.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And one more thing: under balance of performance, could Audi be allowed to run at 900kgs like other grandfather LMP1s, or will the R15 be stuck at 930kgs, possibly to counter what would likely still be a big torque advantage?

The rules say that the R15 is allowed to race "under the condition to keep the full specifications of the 2010 season". The only mandatory modification are a smaller air restrictor/lower boost pressure and a smaller fuel thank. That means a minimum weight of 930 kg.

[Tim the Grey]

I guess that all the restrictions give it the "++" designation, to differentiate it from last year's version?
It'll all come out in the wash!

[chernaudi]

So the "++" is just a white wash euphenism by Audi to designate a theoretically crippled, warmed over car that just gonna run laps to collect points?

If that's the case, Audi may as well hurry up and design a sprint race package for the R18, unless the 90X is junk in terms of reliablity, which the 905 and the 908 didn't have very good reliability the first couple of years of their lives, and considering Peugeot's tendancy to push the limits early on, that might not change.

So the 90x not being very reliable and the R15 at least being reliable and possibly, albeit inadventantly, maybe having a slight speed advantage (which now is hard to judge, as the R15 and the R18 are in different areo specs and the R18 is new) might be Audi's hope to win Sebring. If the performance is off, for the R15 and the Pugs manage to survive Sebring, Audi had better hope that the R18 is able to run laps around the 90x, which design wise does look like a SWB, warmed over 908 thus far.

However, torque might be the R15's trump card. In another thread, someone commented that Peter Elleary refered to torque being the secret weapon of the Audi R8 and the Bentley Speed 8--top speed might not have been anything very special, but the rate where it hit it's top speed was just as important, as the faster top end but realtively gutless cars will have to take longer to reach their top speed.

That, and maybe Audi has sorted the R15's front end. Mechanical grip is the problem, and you don't need to fit wider tires to fix that. Simple tuning can solve that problem, and during the race at Zhuhai, even when both Audi and Peugeot stopped double stinting tires, it seemed that Audi may've had a grip advantage. And with Zhuhai being a mechanical grip track, Audi may've found something there.

But if the R15 is indeed faster inspite of taking a 100+bhp hit and being about 70lbs/30kgs heavier than the R18, and that the 90x is built to the same specs and has only had shakedown runs, maybe Audi may have the edge at Sebring and may be fast enough to make the new Pugs break--this is Sebring, after all.

And once the R15 is out of the picture, the R18 and the 90X will have that same advantage come Spa, as even the big engined, grandfathered LMP1s can't match the 550ft/lbs or so of torque that the diesels will likely be making.

[Mal]

I would be surprised if Audi ran the R15 in exactly last years configuration to give them a direct speed comparison between the two cars as a benchmark before they start optimising both.

I am also sure that much of the reason Audi wont be running to R18 at Sebring is to reduce the chances of performance balancing before Le Mans

[gwyllion]

@chernaudi: One guy says that the R18 looked slower than the restricted R15 and you are jumping to conclusions. It is called testing for a reason. Do you see the measurement equipment on the #2 R18? Audi is not (yet) looking for fast lap times.

Audi has shown in the past that they can win races with a slower car. A open car is better in traffic and in Sebring 2 air guns are allowed during a pitstop. So there are ways to make up time iff the new Peugeot has faster race pace.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

However, torque might be the R15's trump card.

It is very difficult to make prediction about that. The air restrictor is same for 2010 and 2011 diesel engines and the boost pressures are such that both engines aspirate the small amount of air:

• R15++: 5.5 liter x 2000 mbar = 1.1 kJ
• R18: 3.7 liter x 3000 mbar = 1.11 kJ

Hence in theory they will produce comparable power and torque. Of course more cilinders is bad for friction losses and a high turbo boost is not desirable either.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

But if the R15 is indeed faster inspite of taking a 100+bhp hit and being about 70lbs/30kgs heavier than the R18, and that the 90x is built to the same specs and has only had shakedown runs, maybe Audi may have the edge at Sebring and may be fast enough to make the new Pugs break--this is Sebring, after all.

Sorry, but I would not call multiple test days on different circuits in southern Europe "shakedown runs". The new Peugeot will have done a decent amount of testing before its Sebring debut.

[Tim the Grey]

Nope. It's a car breaker of a track. Run the car you KNOW will finish...
The R18 will race at Spa in early May. the ACO have 5-6 weeks to sort any equalisation issues arising.

And I have read in this forum of draconian penalties reserved for 'sandbaggers and cheats' if I may paraphrase... If they find you have 'detuned' to gain an advantage, they will not be happy officials.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Mal

I am also sure that much of the reason Audi wont be running to R18 at Sebring is to reduce the chances of performance balancing before Le Mans

Perhaps they should have told Peugeot not the run the 90X before Le Mans

If the ACO is unhappy with the pace of diesel in Spa and during the test days, they can still adjust the performance balance.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

If the ACO is unhappy with the pace of diesel in Spa and during the test days, they can still adjust the performance balance.

Yeah, first "round" of all-around performance balancing is between Spa and Le Mans. So all the new-for-2011 cars will have raced at least once by then.

[Mal]

The trouble is for Audi and Pug, at least, it is all about Le Mans therefore we cannot be certain we have seen their full potential until then. The Potential for Performance balancing could lead to sandbagging in the races before Le Mans

[WolfsburgRS]

Anybody else notice that the R18 pics have all been removed from Old Boone's photostream...

Audi trying to things?

[Victor_RO]

They're still up at the moment in other locations though... http://www.racerevo.com/2011/01/27/s...port-audi-r18/

[JAG]

In those head on track shots it's noticeable just how low the rear wing is, will be interesting to see if that is the new trend.

[The Badger]

Have we seen a plan view of the car yet ?

[Old Boone]

Hi guys. I haven't posted here before but I've been a lurker for years.

First off, the R18 was properly fast. To my knowledge this was the first time it was on a track so their speed yesterday could just be from the learning curve of the car. I wasn't doing any official timing - I just noticed most of the time the R15 would catch and pass the R18 from lap to lap. I have no doubts this car will be very competitive when we see it race later this year.

Second, I have temporarily taken down the pictures of the car just as a precaution (they're posted on plenty of race sites by now anyway). I have not been contacted by Audi about the photos so please don't think that they are censoring me in any way.

Third, I think the car looks great in person. It's very different from what we've been watching for years but that's part of the car's appeal.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Old Boone

Hi guys. I haven't posted here before but I've been a lurker for years.

First off, the R18 was properly fast. To my knowledge this was the first time it was on a track so their speed yesterday could just be from the learning curve of the car. I wasn't doing any official timing - I just noticed most of the time the R15 would catch and pass the R18 from lap to lap. I have no doubts this car will be very competitive when we see it race later this year.

Second, I have temporarily taken down the pictures of the car just as a precaution (they're posted on plenty of race sites by now anyway). I have not been contacted by Audi about the photos so please don't think that they are censoring me in any way.

Third, I think the car looks great in person. It's very different from what we've been watching for years but that's part of the car's appeal.

Welcome aboard, and thanks for the testing shots. Did you by chance see both the #1 and #2 R18's on the track at the same time, and with the r15? Just wondering how many drivers were involved... Also, off topic, but were there 1 or 2 Lambo's there?

[Old Boone]

Hi joeb - Yes, both the #1 & #2 R18s were on the track at the same time along with the #7 R15. I couldn't tell you how many drivers were involved...it was very difficult to see the helmets in the cockpits. I think there was only 1 Lambo on track but it's difficult to call since it wasn't numbered.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Old Boone

Hi joeb - Yes, both the #1 & #2 R18s were on the track at the same time along with the #7 R15. I couldn't tell you how many drivers were involved...it was very difficult to see the helmets in the cockpits. I think there was only 1 Lambo on track but it's difficult to call since it wasn't numbered.

Welcome to the board and thanks for the info and pics!
I know Audi was just testing and wasn't pushing hard, but did the R18 seem pretty stable and seem like it has serious potential?

Do you have any more shots of the car that you can post?

[Audi Racer]

Any thoughts on the exhuast note of the audi R18.

[Tim the Grey]

Hi James! Welcome to the assylum for Failed Conspiracy Theorists...

Someone will be on asking you to measure the width of the R15 front tyres before long!

[chernaudi]

Getting back to the R15 vs R18, we gotta remember that the R15 still has a 1.8 liter advantage, and displacement=torque, just as forced induction means more torque. Of course, the larger displacement threortically means inferior fuel comsumption unless the R15 ends up being a very low-revving engine due to the restrictor/turbo boost changes.

If the R15 has more torque, the R18 might equal it in top speed, but the R15 will reach it terminal velocity faster--and advantage that, at least in theory if not in practice, the diesels have had for years, as well as the forced induction R8 and the Bentleys.

Of course, we can say in theory that the R15 being much more developed was being pushed for pace, while the R18 was on an endurance run--James' observations about the exhaust difference between the two cars seem to maybe point towards that, as well as the R15 catching as passing R18s a few times. Either the R15 was being hammered full bore, or it might be the low-end torque advantage that the R15 might have owning to having almost 2 liters more cylinder displacement--especially if the R18s were being overtaken out of turn 7.

Wide tires or not, Audi may've been testing something on the R15 to sort out it's low speed handling/grip issues. As I said, at Zhuhai--a mechanical grip track--there were times that the R15 seemed to have an edge in grip compared to the 908s when they were on similar tire stints. Or Audi may've found something on the R18's setup that may work on the R15--the ACO may've insisted that Audi not run the wider tires on the R15 unless they could bend the ACO over backwards, but development and tuning is still allowed as long as it's within the ACO's peramiters.

I have little worry about the R18 being up to speed soon, but if this is a possible hint that the ACO may've messed up their own equivlancly formula, it's an embarassment on the ACO's part, as you'll need a diesel to race competitivly--let alone outrun--the theoretically obsolescent old LMP1s. And the ACO don't want the newer cars to be shown up by old ones.

And I think that Peugeot is still making a gamble on the 90X being ready before Sebring, because not much has been heard of the 90x testing since the first one was destroyed. And aside from 2010--when they had no serious competition--Sebring hasn't been very kind to Peugeot over the last few years.

But then again, it was rumored that Audi was in Florida about a month ago testing something, but who knows what came of that, or what else they've done since November or before.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And I think that Peugeot is still making a gamble on the 90X being ready before Sebring, because not much has been heard of the 90x testing since the first one was destroyed.

Big fault in that argument, not much has been heard of the 90X testing before that car was crashed. And even if Audi have been testing the R18 a month before its official unveiling, Peugeot will have already been testing their new car 3 months in advance. And that's the main reason why one side is bringing its new car to Sebring for the race and the other isn't.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Getting back to the R15 vs R18, we gotta remember that the R15 still has a 1.8 liter advantage, and displacement=torque, just as forced induction means more torque. Of course, the larger displacement threortically means inferior fuel comsumption unless the R15 ends up being a very low-revving engine due to the restrictor/turbo boost changes.

If the R15 has more torque, the R18 might equal it in top speed, but the R15 will reach it terminal velocity faster.

Apparently you missed a message I posted earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The air restrictor is same for 2010 and 2011 diesel engines and the boost pressures are such that both engines aspirate the small amount of air:

• R15++: 5.5 liter x 2000 mbar = 1.1 kJ
• R18: 3.7 liter x 3000 mbar = 1.11 kJ

Hence in theory they will produce comparable power and torque. Of course more cilinders is bad for friction losses and a high turbo boost is not desirable either.

Under the assumption that the (compressed) air enters the engine with the same temperature (i.e. adequate intercooling), the R15 and R18 engine will suck the same amount of air, which means that the same amount of fuel can potentially be burned. Hence under the current technical regulations both engines will on paper produce comparable torque and power.

Personally I doubt that the R15 will have a huge torque advantage. You must remember that the ACO has reduced the turbo pressure considerably: from 2590 mbar to 2000 mbar (i.e. 23%). Assumping a linear reduction, this corresponds with a reduction from 1100 Nm to 850 Nm.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

But then again, it was rumored that Audi was in Florida about a month ago testing something, but who knows what came of that, or what else they've done since November or before.

In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ZIccjnS_o#t=4m42 McNish mentioned that the R18 did not yet do any major testing, before this Sebring testing week.

[chernaudi]

Some one on Fourtitude admitted to seeing an Audi Sport trailer driving south on a highway in the direction of south Florida month in a half ago. Either it was to move equipment, or Audi did something at either Sebring or some other south Florida racing circuit. They could've tested an R18, R15, R8 GT3 or a Lamborhini GT2 car for all we know--Audi has tested R8s at Sebring before. It couldn't just be transportation of equipment unless Audi have rented a barn, unused aircraft hangar or some large storage facility at or near Sebring.

And does anyone know if anyone can just rent an unused barn or aircraft hangar at Sebring for storage?

And on your point, why do NA engines that suck in the same air but are of different capacities still have the larger engine making more torque? Turbo engines can't be immune to displacement differences.