Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

My point is that if Audi uses turbo compounding on the R18 to power their hybrid system, the can get the advantages of a VTG, a normal turbocharger, and a supercharger without the inherant disadvantages of the systems, slight or major.

Energy isn't free.Attaching a shaft to the turbocharger(that will charge the hybrid system) is only going to cause back pressure in the exhaust system....That back pressure is going to cause friction in the engine which will make less hp as a result.

i don;t think this is the way Audi is going......they are most likely going to go with the braking energy recovery....

[chernaudi]

Turbochargers are free horsepower as it's driven by exhaust gasses, and the RCE article hints that Audi is considering some form of turbo compounding to produce the power needed to run a hybrid system.

An other possibility is two turbos sequentially mounted--one being the main (current) VTG feeding a hybrid turbo, which is purpose made to charge a hybrid system. Or maybe developing the VTG into an actual hybrid turbo may be another possibility.

Audi it seems doesn't want to follow Peugeot and go the braking recovery (KERS) route, because of weight and complexity, and wants to use a recovery system that recovers energy from exhaust (waste) gases--and as with turbocharging, that's as close to free energy as these guys will probably get with the current reign of the internal combustion (piston) engine.

World War II aircraft often had the engine exhaust pipes arranged to augment thrust and (as on the P-51 Mustang, among others) effect the aerodynamics of the wing and other elements (the F1 blown diffuser idea 60+ years before the current controversy). If you have something that's just there wasting away, why not use it?

And we also have to look at the effiency of such system. Braking happens intermitenly, while exhaust gasses are produced all the while as long as the engine runs. Possibly an other reason why Audi is rumored to be looking at waste energy recovery.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Turbochargers are free horsepower as it's driven by exhaust gasses, and the RCE article hints that Audi is considering some form of turbo compounding to produce the power needed to run a hybrid system.

turbo's are not "free horsepower" they come at a cost(once again energy is not free)....you run a turbo anyway is because the gains dramatically outweigh the cost......All turbo's cause a different amount of back Pressure(an engine is forcing the air out of the exhaust manifold...a turbo wants to push air back in to a certain degree)....Smaller turbo's cause the most...Larger turbos(like the Audi turbo)...cause the least back pressure but hence suffer from more lag but VGT helps that(by basically turning the large turbo into a smaller turbo at low RPM's but then opening up the vanes at high RPM to be least restricitive on the engine when the turbo is already spooled up .....using a second turbo to charge the hyrbid system will only be because we assume the hybrid system output is signicantly greater than what the second turbo draws.

That might explain why Audi has chosen to run a single turbo charger this year....Knowing they would use another one with the hybrid system?.....Two turbos is pretty normal but having to run a third Turbo sounds a bit ridiculous for a race engine.....


There is some seriously clever drivetrain thinking going on at Audi at the moment....Im impressed at how they may have decided to use a secondary turbo to charge their hybrid system.....Thats explains why they opted for V6 and single turbo.......They have alot of room in that engine bay.

It's too little too late for Peugeot to try this route because they already have two turbo's

[chernaudi]

That, and Peugeot it seems has committed to KERS from day one because that's seemingly what they want to use as their road hybrids will use it.

Audi hasn't committed to hybrids as much on the road car side of things, but they see the writing on the wall, and a diesel hybrid is the best route right now on the road car side for fuel mileage.

Basically, what Steve Matchett said about F1 cars during practice for the Silverstone GP applies much more so for LMP1 cars--more technology demonstrators and testing machines than just simply race cars.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

That, and Peugeot it seems has committed to KERS from day one because that's seemingly what they want to use as their road hybrids will use it.

Audi hasn't committed to hybrids as much on the road car side of things, but they see the writing on the wall, and a diesel hybrid is the best route right now on the road car side for fuel mileage.

Basically, what Steve Matchett said about F1 cars during practice for the Silverstone GP applies much more so for LMP1 cars--more technology demonstrators and testing machines than just simply race cars.

the diesel hybrid Peugeot 3008 is about to hit the market...not in the USA of course.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

An other possibility is two turbos sequentially mounted--one being the main (current) VTG feeding a hybrid turbo, which is purpose made to charge a hybrid system.

The second component is not a turbo(charger) because the turbine drives an electric generator, not a compressor. The correct name is a power turbine.

[chernaudi]

Would the second turbine (power turbine) drive the generator on it's own, or would it take power from the main turbocharger?

I think this is what Audi Racer is asking about, because I believe that the power turbine is the one that would drive the PTO or whatever to charge the generator.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Would the second turbine (power turbine) drive the generator on it's own, or would it take power from the main turbocharger?

I think this is what Audi Racer is asking about, because I believe that the power turbine is the one that would drive the PTO or whatever to charge the generator.

Yeah that was what i was meaning......A second turbine(that is spun up by the exhaust gases) that runs a generator that creates electricity to charge a battery.......

Technically theres two ways to achieve this.....1....have a hot side only turbo that has a shaft attached to the turbine and drives a generator....and 2.....Have a hot side cold side conventional turbo(and have the cold side force air through a turbine generator) you dont want to feed hot exhaust to an air electrical generator...that = fire


The second idea seems like more weight than the first.

The only way it would work is for it to be fed by the Waste from the first real Turbocharger. theres no other source of exhaust gases.....And that large turbo needs all of the exhaust first and foremost....

[Audi Racer]

So apparently part of the reason Audi dropped it's F1 engine ambitions was the FIA said No to VTG turbo technology....that basically made F1 seem pointless entertainment in Audi's view and they were no longer interested.....

interesting the thing that got them into Lemans is keeping them there as well..So we can probably look forward to Porsche vs Aud

[broadrun96]

Really surprised to be watching Modern Family and see an R18 commercial. Now if they had just ended with 'Come see the R18 at Road Atlanta for Petit Le Mans'

[AGD]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Really surprised to be watching Modern Family and see an R18 commercial. Now if they had just ended with 'Come see the R18 at Road Atlanta for Petit Le Mans'

It sure was odd seeing an R18 commercial during the MLB All-Star Game last night. It was the one that EuroSport was showing during the 24 hours of the guy blowing some dust off the car and it rolled backwards. It was definitely strange seeing ILMC logos during such a mainstream American sporting event. Anyway, I see Audi NA must think it that is more worthwhile to run ads with the R18 rather than run it in America (aside from Petit of course).

[joeb]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Now if they had just ended with 'Come see the R18 at Road Atlanta for Petit Le Mans'

Exactly! So you might have had somebody sitting at home saying, "damn what was that car it was awesome, I'd love to see more of that" But then by the time the show resumes they have already forgotten, and they won't take the time to look up Audi motorsport.... It's great that they are advertising with their racing programs in mainstream media, but it does seem like they could take it one step further - although I suppose it isn't Audi's job to advertise for the Petit.

[chernaudi]

Only reason why Audi would be advertizing their non-existant North American race program is:

1--Petit Le Mans in a couple of months away (which wasn't referenced in the ad),

2--Audi are advertizing that they won Le Mans (which apparently wasn't really referenced either)

3--The remaining ILMC rounds might have a NA tv package (probably non-existant), or

4--With the FIA helping to work on the commercial side of things, the WEC might have a decent NA TV package, which remains to be seen, and we'll have to wait at least until Silverstone for such an announcement.

A very distant possibility is that Audi may be considering running in the ALMS in 2012, but that is very distant and probably won't happen, especially if Audi of America and Audi AG/Audi Sport still have their financial and ALMS TV deal schism between them, and if the possible rumors of a team getting 1-2 R18s for the WEC (not the ALMS) are true.

Either that, or Audi are trying to push their green technology, which aside from the A3 TDI and Q7 TDI, really isn't represented as far as road cars go in NA.

[Audi Racer]

Good points...Makes you really wonder why? they had those commercials.

You know what i would love to find out....(and im sure Audi knows)....How many people logged onto the Audi Motorsport Experience website within a couple hours of when that commercial aired?

Im thinking of some mainstream TV coverage of the WEC on a Fox2 channel? Fox is certainly capable of having an extra channel for major events. And since the FIA shows select F1 races on Fox(although tape delayed.....

[Acid09]

With the WEC around the corner, chances of a full season works entry in the ALMS are slimmer than they have ever been.

It just makes no sense for non-US manufacturers to race in that series if you can get worldwide presence by racing in the WEC against proper competition (that the ALMS can't provide in LMP1).

[seanyb505]

I thought the message was simple. Audi builds light cars. And oh yeah, they race them, so that must mean something. And they know what they're doing. And it's so easy, because they know what they're doing.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Acid09

With the WEC around the corner, chances of a full season works entry in the ALMS are slimmer than they have ever been.

It just makes no sense for non-US manufacturers to race in that series if you can get worldwide presence by racing in the WEC against proper competition (that the ALMS can't provide in LMP1).

Ironically, the ALMS had better exposure world wide than the LMS did.

But then 2009 hit, and with the ACO trying to develop a world championship (the Euro-centric ILMC), that was enough for Audi to give up on the ALMS (unless Audi of America footed most of the bill) and Peugeot to do the same for the LMS.

Now with the WEC being run jointly by the ACO (who'll sanction the races) and the FIA (who'll help promote the series), the ALMS and LMS are now just regional series propped up by privateers, which for the LMS will no longer be their salvation because of several of those teams wanting to run in the WEC.

The only way that R18s will end up in the ALMS next year is if Audi of America and a rich team owner (a Roger Penske-type character for instance) foot the bill, which I don't see happening.

Audi have been fighting/pleading with the ACO and the FIA to have a world sportscar championship since 2000, and it's taken 11 years, but Audi's wish seem to have been granted, which means that unless customers step up and do things largely to Audi's terms, there'll be few if any customer cars in the regional series (the rumor is that Audi may sell 1-2 R18s to a customer team in the WEC, but that's about it and even that might not happen), and that applies to Peugeot, who seem to not be in the mood to sell any cars to anyone right now.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

and that applies to Peugeot, who seem to not be in the mood to sell any cars to anyone right now.

is this statement based on some specific information or just another one of your regularly unsupported guesses regarding Peugeot.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi have been fighting/pleading with the ACO and the FIA to have a world sportscar championship since 2000, and it's taken 11 years, but Audi's wish seem to have been granted, which means that unless customers step up and do things largely to Audi's terms, there'll be few if any customer cars in the regional series (the rumor is that Audi may sell 1-2 R18s to a customer team in the WEC, but that's about it and even that might not happen), and that applies to Peugeot, who seem to not be in the mood to sell any cars to anyone right now.

Seems like the privateers are more interested in buying the engines. Pegeuot wants to sell. and maybe audi does as well...Why doesn't audi have any customer teams. It seems like a departure from the R8

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by henk4

is this statement based on some specific information or just another one of your regularly unsupported guesses regarding Peugeot.

Quote from the WEC thread:

"Not according to John Dagys, he mentions on twitter that Peugeot won't be offering there cars to customers.

So it could be Audi, but to who?"

That means that Oreca may be out for next year as far as Peugeot goes/off to another program (unless the Oreca 02 LMP1 is revived), and no Pugs for the LMS or other regional series, with Audi likely in the same boat (the rumored "customer" R18s are for the WEC).

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Quote from the WEC thread:

"Not according to John Dagys, he mentions on twitter that Peugeot won't be offering there cars to customers.

So it could be Audi, but to who?"

So what Dagys says is true? Did you check with Cecile?

[Audi Racer]

Considering the interest by many petrol manufacturers right now.......Selling a car to a customer could be risky because of Technical secrets leaking out. Peugeot doesn't want to find out that Ferdinand Piech was having drinks with the engineer on the oreca Peugeuot 908. thats how secrets leak.

[chernaudi]

Basically from what posters have said in the WEC topic is that Audi are interested in selling either whole cars or possibly engines to teams in the WEC, while Peugeot is only apparently interested in selling engines.

The two front runners for the Pug engine are Oreca (whose 02 LMP1 was apparently designed around the 908's V8), and Pescarolo (who is attempting to design a new LMP1 for next year).

As for Audi and the WEC, Oreca may be considering buying 1-2 R18s, or it may be a baseless rumor.

Either way, the only way we'll see more Pugs on the track it seems is if their engines end up in other cars, and any Audi deal at this stage seems to be mostly aimed at the WEC.

[chernaudi]

I know that these might not be the best photos, but are the LM and sprint race tab dive planes on the R18 the same between the two bodywork specs?

Imola:

http://www.fourtitude.com/gallery/ga...&dispsize=1024

Le Mans:

http://www.fourtitude.com/gallery/ga...&dispsize=1024

Are they about the same size or is one larger than the other, or is it the difference between the LM and sprint bodywork that may be causing an illusion?

[Audi Racer]

The front headlights look rounded in the imola spec vs the pontoon shaped Lemans spec.....Umm. i kind of think the imola spec diveplanes are wider....but maybe thats a camera illusion?