Audi LMP1 Discussion

[TF110]

I was speaking of the future. Not the current rules in DTM.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

I was speaking of the future. Not the current rules in DTM.

I was not speaking of the current rules in DTM either, was I

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I was not speaking of the current rules in DTM either, was I

You said they wont have any freedom to at least 2016. Thats the current regulating, right? If they combine there may be some opening up of the rules for the hybrid power. They all wont run a spec package.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

You said they wont have any freedom to at least 2016. Thats the current regulating, right? If they combine there may be some opening up of the rules for the hybrid power. They all wont run a spec package.

Is that what I said really

Whether it be the current DTM rules (<2016) or the future DTM rules (>2016), the engine architecture is basically specified by the rules. The "old" four-liter-V8-90-degrees architecture is going to remain the "spec package" for the next couple of years, before being replaced by the two-liter-turbo+hybrid architecture starting from 2016. Different powertrains, but similar (lack of) freedom on the development side. The hybrid system (which I expect is also going to be specified by the rules) is not going to change much in that respect, but merely offer another performance variable. Where is the opportunity to "combine" anything in that context ?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Well, the future DTM/Super GT engines are going to be "spec engines" at least in the sense that they will all have to be two-litres turbos by 2016 at the latest AFAIK. That restricts the freedom in the engine area to a certain extent, doesn't it ?

In any event, my point is that the current LMP regulations are the ideal platform to allow Audi to test innovations and showcase their technology. They have more or less total freedom on the engine and hybrid side, at least far more than under the DTM/Super GT rules (or F1 rules... or Indycar rules... pick your choice). As long as this stays like that - and putting politics aside - there is objectively no reason for Audi to leave the LMP arena.

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Is that what I said really

Seemed like it to me.

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Whether it be the current DTM rules (<2016) or the future DTM rules (>2016), the engine architecture is basically specified by the rules. The "old" four-liter-V8-90-degrees architecture is going to remain the "spec package" for the next couple of years, before being replaced by the two-liter-turbo+hybrid architecture starting from 2016. Different powertrains, but similar (lack of) freedom on the development side. The hybrid system (which I expect is also going to be specified by the rules) is not going to change much in that respect, but merely offer another performance variable. Where is the opportunity to "combine" anything in that context ?

Thats the thing. You claim there will be no influence from the manufacturer, but if thats the case why would they add hybrid power and try to join GT500 cars? No one knows for certain what post 2016 holds, but signs point to more open rules.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Thats the thing. You claim there will be no influence from the manufacturer, but if thats the case why would they add hybrid power and try to join GT500 cars?

Response is simple and contained in the link to the Autosport article I included in my previous post:

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Well, the future DTM/Super GT engines are going to be "spec engines" at least in the sense that they will all have to be two-litres turbos by 2016 at the latest AFAIK.

Hans-Werner Aufrecht, chairman of the DTM-organising ITR, told AUTOSPORT: "We want two-litre turbos in Europe and America, no question. We want the same regulations everywhere.

"The important point that all the manufacturers have accepted is cost reduction. This will allow them to run around the world with the same car and engine."

The revelation will mean an end for the current breed of 90-degree, four-litre V8s, which date back to the rebirth of the series in 2000.

Next year's Super GT engine formula calls for the use of an energy-retrieval unit or KERS, and Aufrecht said that this was also under consideration for the DTM.

He explained that the ITR was working with electronics giant Bosch to produce a spec system that would be run by each of the manufacturers competing in the DTM.

"We are thinking about KERS," said Aufrecht. "But it would have to be one system for everyone."

Originally Posted by TF110

No one knows for certain what post 2016 holds, but signs point to more open rules.

It's pretty clear to me what post 2016 holds if you read the Autosport article...

[TF110]

Thats not a confirmation they will not have manufacturer influence. The same rules everywhere is already wrong since GT500 neglected their drs. And to my knowledge will use their own hybrid systems. On top of it the NSX is mid engined. So that article is not just outdated but kind of wrong. We all know things change. Your whole argument is against me thinking that Audi will use dtm as a way of 'racing to road' application. But the smaller turbo units is road relevant. So whats the disagreement for? I never said they'd stop an lmp program, so why are you trying to discredit what I'm stating?

[MyNameIsNigel]

Discredit ?

I am just stating plain facts that have been reported before, and not only by Autosport. It's your right to disagree. Let's move on

[TF110]

Hey go back to the original statement. Audi can use series' like DTM in the future as 'road relevant'. Autosport only reports news like any other motorsport outlet. I'm not questioning their report. But theres no set rules beyond 2016 in DTM, only plans. Some of those obviously have changed already. I also said theyll continue with diesel as its a part of their road going cars. So imo even if they don't do lmp, they can claim relevance to their brand through other racing series. You questioned that statement, I'm asking why?

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Hey go back to the original statement. Audi can use series' like DTM in the future as 'road relevant'. Autosport only reports news like any other motorsport outlet. I'm not questioning their report. But theres no set rules beyond 2016 in DTM, only plans. Some of those obviously have changed already. I also said theyll continue with diesel as its a part of their road going cars. So imo even if they don't do lmp, they can claim relevance to their brand through other racing series. You questioned that statement, I'm asking why?

You don't want to move on do you ?

My whole point is that LMP rules offer technical freedom, far more than the DTM rules. Two-liter-turbos + hybrids are potentially "road car relevant". You are right. As far as DTM engine specs are concerned, the current V8 specs have basically been in place since 2000. You can bet that the new for-2016 engine+hybrid specs will be in force for at least a decade as well. IMHO, DTM is therefore unlikely to offer the same sort of technical freedom that the current LMP rules provide.

Can we now move on ?

[Aysedasi]

Yes - NOW we move on. OK?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

You don't want to move on do you ?

My whole point is that LMP rules offer technical freedom, far more than the DTM rules. Two-liter-turbos + hybrids are potentially "road car relevant". You are right. As far as DTM engine specs are concerned, the current V8 specs have basically been in place since 2000. You can bet that the new for-2016 engine+hybrid specs will be in force for at least a decade as well. IMHO, DTM is therefore unlikely to offer the same sort of technical freedom that the current LMP rules provide.

Can we now move on ?

I agreed and know diesel is an important part of Audi. Technical freedom is a great part of being in lmp. GTE/GT3 being combined also allows Audi to use their R8 in LeMans. I wouldn't be surprised to see a hybrid version in the future. With DTM, they use the A4 and even though theres no real technical relationship, its a big selling point. Thats like the Ford and Chevy nascar connection. I still see chevy's with #3 stickers!

[Japanese Samurai]

According to Japanese Autosport's WEC report,
Toyota analyzes that Audi uses hybrid assistance only once per lap.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

According to Japanese Autosport's WEC report,
Toyota analyzes that Audi uses hybrid assistance only once per lap.

That would be quite surprising. Do yo have a translation of the relevant report ?

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

That would be quite surprising. Do yo have a translation of the relevant report ?

Very short sentence.
There is great variation among the sector time of the practice session of Audi.
This is because they are testing the timing of optimal hybrid assistance.
And it means that they are not using hybrid assistance with all the sectors.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Very short sentence.
There is great variation among the sector time of the practice session of Audi.
This is because they are testing the timing of optimal hybrid assistance.
And it means that they are not using hybrid assistance with all the sectors.

Thanks. Interesting. I thought that the current rules basically dictate where the harvested energy can be released, namely directly after each hybrid zone, and that the teams have therefore little if no ability at all to play with this parameter.

[Japanese Samurai]

Addition

This is Hisatake Murata (Toyota hybrid project leader)'s coment.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

According to Japanese Autosport's WEC report,
Toyota analyzes that Audi uses hybrid assistance only once per lap.

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Very short sentence.
There is great variation among the sector time of the practice session of Audi.
This is because they are testing the timing of optimal hybrid assistance.
And it means that they are not using hybrid assistance with all the sectors.

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Addition

This is Hisatake Murata (Toyota hybrid project leader)'s coment.

The current rules (Article 1.13) state:

The amount of energy used between 2 braking must not exceed 0.5 MJ.
Braking is a deceleration of the car greater than 1g.
Braking lasting under 1 second will not be taken into account.
For each circuit, some braking zona will be defined by Endurance Committee before every event. The allowance and measurement of released energy will be considered for every lap between each of the defined entries of zonas.

In view of the above, I find it hard to believe that Audi would use the hybrid assistance only once per lap as this would basically mean that they use only 0.5 MJ per lap. It's well possible however - as suggested by Murata - that during practice, they test and define, for each relevant section of the track where hybrid power can be used (i.e. between each two "braking zonas" defined by the Endurance Committee), a proper timing or triggering point where energy is to be released. This may possibly explain the great variation in sector times that Murata is apparently referring to.

I would trust that Toyota are doing the same, or is Murata's statement to be understood as suggesting that Toyota don't have the ability to adjust the timing of the release of hybrid power ?

[CyberMotor]

If I understand the two systems correctly, the Audi system is separate in that the electric motors are on the front wheels while Toyota's is built into the drivetrain. It would seem that the Audi system would be easier to control seperately.

[TF110]

If theyre using hybrid only once per lap they have a huge power advantage. Toyota already voiced their thoughts on this saying theyre down at least 50-60hp.

[MyNameIsNigel]

The rules as they stand dictate that the energy harvested by the hybrid system has to be released between each hybrid braking zones. There were four such zones at Austin at turns #1, #11, #12 and #20, meaning that the hybrid system could release four times the maximum allowable energy of 0.5 MJ, i.e. 2 MJ per lap.

It can't be that Audi were using their hybrid system only once per lap, as this would imply that they were using only 25% of the maximum allowable energy releasable per lap. That would not bring any advantage performance-wise and would rather amount to a considerable performance deficit compared to the Toyota. This simply does not make sense.

It can well be however that Audi have been working on optimizing the timing of the release of energy in the twisty sections between turns #1 and #11 and turns #12 and #20. The sections after turns #11 and #20 are the two straights where the hybrid power can/should be released as early as possible.

[TF110]

It does make sense if they are releasing energy only once. So it could mean they don't need the hybrid. You saw this evidenced at Silverstone when one of their car's hybrid systems weren't working yet still setting times close to the fastest lap of the race. They could well enough just wait to use the hybrid on the straight or a specific sector. I think this is what is being suggested. They have enough hp w.o the hybrid that perhaps they can 'pick and choose' when they use the flybrids stored energy.

This is just a hypothesis, not saying thats what takes place.

[MyNameIsNigel]

I don't see in which respect Audi would gain a performance advantage by using the hybrid system only once per lap. In Austin, there were four hybrid "sectors" where energy could be released, i.e. between turns #1-#11, #11-#12, #12-#20 and #20-#1. The current rules do not allow to "carry over" energy from one hybrid sector to another. You are stuck with 0.5 MJ for each hybrid sector. If Audi were using the hybrid system only once per lap (which I hardly believe), that can only mean that they were using only 1/4 of the available hybrid boost per lap.

If I refer to Japanese Samurai's previous post, Murata apparently claims that they were "testing the timing of optimal hybrid assistance". That part makes sense to me. I don't however understand the last part of Murata's statement where he apparently draws the conclusion that Audi were not using hybrid assistance "with all the sectors".

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Very short sentence.
There is great variation among the sector time of the practice session of Audi.
This is because they are testing the timing of optimal hybrid assistance.
And it means that they are not using hybrid assistance with all the sectors.

We will not get to the bottom of this issue if am afraid, unless we get some answers from Audi or some real data from the ACO-FIA.

The ACO-FIA shoud probably contemplate to offer a way to understand when hybrid power is in use, much like the KERS usage in F1. That would help a bit.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I don't see in which respect Audi would gain a performance advantage by using the hybrid system only once per lap. In Austin, there were four hybrid "sectors" where energy could be released, i.e. between turns #1-#11, #11-#12, #12-#20 and #20-#1. The current rules do not allow to "carry over" energy from one hybrid sector to another. You are stuck with 0.5 MJ for each hybrid sector. If Audi were using the hybrid system only once per lap (which I hardly believe), that can only mean that they were using only 1/4 of the available hybrid boost per lap.

If I refer to Japanese Samurai's previous post, Murata apparently claims that they were "testing the timing of optimal hybrid assistance". That part makes sense to me. I don't however understand the last part of Murata's statement where he apparently draws the conclusion that Audi were not using hybrid assistance "with all the sectors".


We will not get to the bottom of this issue if am afraid, unless we get some answers from Audi or some real data from the ACO-FIA.

The ACO-FIA shoud probably contemplate to offer a way to understand when hybrid power is in use, much like the KERS usage in F1. That would help a bit.

Not suggesting they use more energy than allocated in a single instance. I said they may wait for a certain release zone. I think you misunderstood me there. If Murata thinks this is the case based on sector times, his thinking is what I am elaborating on. They don't need the hybrid power so they may have it programmed somehow to only release the stored energy or even capture it at certain hybrid zones. I'm not sure how this could work, but it could possibly be controlled by braking?

[MyNameIsNigel]

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. If we take Murata's suggestion for granted, that would basically mean that exploitation of the hybrid power boost in certain sectors of a particular track may in effect constitutes... well... a performance disadvantage/handicap, from Audi's perspective at least. That would be weird.

This being said, considering that the concept of "braking zones" is going to disappear under the new rules, could Audi be already exploring/testing new ways of using the hybrid power boost in anticipation of 2014 ?

Who knows ?