Using Spare Cars

[pete60]

Here's something I'd be interested to see what people think of.

Currently, the Supercar rules prevent a competitor who suffers a crash in practice/qualifying from jumping into a spare car. A good case in point is Jamie Whincup the other day. He has a bad accident in practice which takes him out of racing for the whole weekend.

I guess the rule is there for cost containment reasons. Once you allow a spare car, then the bigger teams, who can afford to have a spare or two, would get a benefit. And I guess it stops chassis hopping....bringing two chassis to the race and see which performs better on the day.

But the reality is most of the teams do have them, albeit sitting in the workshop. And after all, this is supposed to be the premier category of motorsport, where the budgets are serious dollars whatever the end of the grid you occupy. And for those in the lower serious budget bracket, then it's a decision for them as to whether they invest in a spare car...no different from all the current discretionary budget decisions thay make right now.

I think the fans deserve better. If the powers that be want to cull the numbers of Supercars to 28 next year, the last thing the fans want to see is a lesser number actually getting to race because of a crash in qualifying. Additionally, it's pretty tough on a competitor in the position of Whincup, who is at the pointy end of the series, and is not to be able to get on the track.

So, if a crash happens in practice or qualifying, which renders the car unfixable for the weekend, why not let the affected driver get into a spare chassis? If it's qualifying, then the penalty might be starting from the rear of grid. At least that's better than not starting at all.

Once the racing has started, then I agree that you can't jump in and out of cars ( which one P Brock was able to do to his advantage several times in his career!) and nor should you be able to do it in the case of a minor bingle. Maybe the race officials can make the determination.

What do you think?

[Rombles1]

Maybe let the first one to wreck their car for the weekend jump into the Safety Car? Not sure if you'd let them race it and score points in it, or just make them drive it around when someone else wrecks theirs?

[Also a Believer]

The idea has merit, might dry up the cars being delivered to the development series competitors.

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by pete60

Here's something I'd be interested to see what people think of.

Currently, the Supercar rules prevent a competitor who suffers a crash in practice/qualifying from jumping into a spare car. A good case in point is Jamie Whincup the other day. He has a bad accident in practice which takes him out of racing for the whole weekend.

I guess the rule is there for cost containment reasons. Once you allow a spare car, then the bigger teams, who can afford to have a spare or two, would get a benefit. And I guess it stops chassis hopping....bringing two chassis to the race and see which performs better on the day.

But the reality is most of the teams do have them, albeit sitting in the workshop. And after all, this is supposed to be the premier category of motorsport, where the budgets are serious dollars whatever the end of the grid you occupy. And for those in the lower serious budget bracket, then it's a decision for them as to whether they invest in a spare car...no different from all the current discretionary budget decisions thay make right now.

I think the fans deserve better. If the powers that be want to cull the numbers of Supercars to 28 next year, the last thing the fans want to see is a lesser number actually getting to race because of a crash in qualifying. Additionally, it's pretty tough on a competitor in the position of Whincup, who is at the pointy end of the series, and is not to be able to get on the track.

So, if a crash happens in practice or qualifying, which renders the car unfixable for the weekend, why not let the affected driver get into a spare chassis? If it's qualifying, then the penalty might be starting from the rear of grid. At least that's better than not starting at all.

Once the racing has started, then I agree that you can't jump in and out of cars ( which one P Brock was able to do to his advantage several times in his career!) and nor should you be able to do it in the case of a minor bingle. Maybe the race officials can make the determination.

What do you think?

Bring on the spare cars, the teams have the personel and budgets to do so , in fine fashion.........

[GTRMagic]

In theory it sounds interesting...

I thought the very best era of F1 as a spectacle was in qualifying, when you had a team like Lotus, with Mr Senna at the wheel, with two 98T's at his disposal in a qualifying session.

Take one out, rev the guts out of it, on maximum Renault boost, and if it blows up... run back to the pits and take another chassis out and go again, until it too goes *poof*

Sadly that era has now gone, and EffOne drivers have to make their engines and gearboxes last for 4 races, like some kind of reliability trial more than a measure of performance.

Would a spare car scenario work in V8Supercar?

The interesting point in a 2 car team may be whether a team can cross enter its pair of drivers, and swap them around if one car went to Simsmetal sometime over the weekend.

There are a load of stories in AMC about Mr Moffat borrowing Mr Carter's car or Mr Goss' car at various times through the race meeting, or indeed Mr Moffat getting laps in a car entered by a completely different team at Bathurst in the early 80's.

A much simpler time of course... as it was when Mr Palmer borrowed someone else's XE for DJ to run in the big race after the primary car met the bushes.

There have been a number of notable incidents in the V8Syupercar era where a spare car would have been handy, like the SBR/Gardner crash at Bathurst some years ago, and various Saturday crashes at Adelaide that have not been fixable to the very best standard on the Sunday.

But is having a spare car a better chance of a team doing better on the Sunday than having the crew work until dawn on refettling the wrecked one? Is it better to not have a tired crew/driver etc that may overlook something, or not notice that something is internally, but not visibly damaged.. and the car stops on the Sunday....

One of the issues to having a spare car is of course cost. If a spare car is in place, it likely means the crew would need to be expanded to accommodate car preparation and development. Not to mention that some teams would need to buy bigger transporters to accommodate 3 chassis, or indeed buy additional transporters for that spare vehicle.

Or perhaps does the lack of need to have people in the crew for body repairs negate the additional preparation staff required?

If a 2 car team's crew is now 60 strong, will it climb to somewhere approach 90 people to run the spare? And is there the engineering talent around, the mechanicking talent around, to accommodate that increase in need?

The question around flyaway rounds would be interesting... to bring an additional chassis would require 50% more air freight capacity (the sound you hear in the background is the cash register ticking over) which isnt always easy to do.

On top of these things, would be who would get use of the spare car? In a Lowndes/Whincup team... would it alternate.. or in the interests of harmony, would each of these guys get a spare chassis to set up and run?

More cost, more stress. Perhaps.

Lots of things to think about... I cant recall VESA ever having the issue on the table....

Except it would make for a better show.. to have the championship leader eliminated because of misadventure not necessarily of his own making robs the paying public on track, and the audience watching the box, of a driver capable of influencing the results.

Lots to think about....

[Gaz170]

1 spare per team, first to need it gets it, but must set a time in it or starts at the back.
888 for example, could take 3 cars to NZ,888,88 & spare. Jamie now runs spare renumbered 88 and gets something for the weekend.

A spare wouldn't require more people to run it, you could have a rule that it can only be used once the main car is considered "totalled" for the weekend, and no going back.

If a team were to wreck 2 cars in a meeting, well-bad luck. You could possibly cannibalise one car to get the other going again, but that would be it.

[leaso]

I am for the idea of allowing spare cars to be used if some one crashes their car up badly to the point it cant be raced.

BUT if you get in the spare car you must start all of your races from the rear of the pack. that way it will hinder people pushing to hard in Qualifying to the crashing point just to try and get that extra little edge it would be taken away by making them run from the bum.

[MPA]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

One of the issues to having a spare car is of course cost. If a spare car is in place, it likely means the crew would need to be expanded to accommodate car preparation and development. Not to mention that some teams would need to buy bigger transporters to accommodate 3 chassis, or indeed buy additional transporters for that spare vehicle.

On a recent peek inside Bright's workshop I counted 4 cars and 1 under construction. If the tail enders have the resources then cost might not be a good argument against the spare.

Finding room in a B-double for a third car for Australian events should be easy. The spare car could double up as a rolling spare parts store.

The fly away rounds would be a problem. If you've seen the size of the containers they use you'd understand.

[GTRMagic]

Are all 4 Britek cars full V8Supercars?

They possess the 2 ex-FPR chassis purchased originally, then Britekked... the ex-FPR chassis Mr Marshall's No Limit group brought at season's commencement... and the new chassis allegedly on target for debut in Perth.

In this example, the 4 chassis are not the same, and not necessarily interchangeable...

In the case of say RNR, they have one chassis... no spares... PCR has a 2nd chassis but it is a couple of evolutions behind in specification... WP & 888 turn them out like sausages...

.. so it remains a question of the "haves" and "have nots"... and also of whether a racing team is the same thing as a car constructor....

[Razor]

I like others, like the idea of spare cars. But there needs to be some crystal clear rules coming to this:

* Before the round, the team must allocate the chassis ID's to the governing body (VESA) (For example: Toll HRT, chassis WP007 and WP008 with WP001 and WP002 as spare)
* If a car is damaged beyond repair at the circut, the team must submit an application to use the spare chassis
* The car's must pass an ID inspection at practice sessions, before the qualifying sessions and before the race to quash use of seat hopping
* The car can be readily built for instant use, not like F1 with a bare tub chassis and must build the car from pieces.
* Teams can only bring one spare per driver.

While we know it will drive up costs a bit and with some of the poorer teams can have a spare that will be light years behind in terms of design and engineering but with the speculation of introducing a control floor pan, it will be much easier to bring in 4 cars per round that are very similar in design and construction.

[00 XR8]

I really don't think spare cars will be allowed, it's just adds too much expense. The logistics/cost of bringing an extra 15 or so cars to the overseas races in particular means it will not happen........ and of course you've got to find somewhere to put all the cars in the pitlane when you get there.

The only possibility for spare cars would be Bathurst..... there is plenty of spare garages, and it would be catastrophic to have (for example) no Whincup/Lowndes in the biggest race of the year because one of them walled it in the shootout......

The only possibility for spare cars would be Bathurst..... there is plenty of spare garages, and it would be catastrophic to have (for example) no Whincup/Lowndes in the biggest race of the year because one of them walled it in the shootout......

[sizzle]

At the end of the day surely it would be better for teams to put the sponsors name out there and be getting exposure than sitting in the shed. I am sure Roland would have preferred 2 cars even if one was any number of evolutions behind. I am sure Jamie would have liked the points too.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by 00 XR8

The only possibility for spare cars would be Bathurst..... there is plenty of spare garages, and it would be catastrophic to have (for example) no Whincup/Lowndes in the biggest race of the year because one of them walled it in the shootout......

But it did happen... a couple of years ago... in an almost new SBR AU... which Mr Gardner disintegrated against the fences...

There was access to another car, but the rules did not allow a switch... meantime Mr Gardner is a sightseer and Mr Besnard and the Ford mafia were left to manoeuvre him into Mr Seton's factory supported car instead

Plus Mr Bargwanna fenced the HYL car all those years ago... and it was no race for them at the mountain either.

Did you notice that the #18 DJR car was in all sorts of technical bothers, more than likely linked to the wreck earlier in the weekend? You would imagine it would be more prudent for the team to push the wreck into the corner, and run another chassis, which has been fully crack tested/lifed/hot run tested rather than a rebuilt unit? Especially where spares are limited

[MPA]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Are all 4 Britek cars full V8Supercars?

They possess the 2 ex-FPR chassis purchased originally, then Britekked... the ex-FPR chassis Mr Marshall's No Limit group brought at season's commencement... and the new chassis allegedly on target for debut in Perth.

In this example, the 4 chassis are not the same, and not necessarily interchangeable...

Pretty much V8SCs....two are up for sale and two will keep racing until the new model comes out......If being used as a spare car, why would they need to be interchangeable?


BTW, they also have a couple of rally cars up for sale too.

[GTRMagic]

If the cars arent built the same in suspension or dampers or even splitter mounts, then a whole 2nd lot of spare parts will be required to go with them, which would be difficult in flyaway rounds where space is overly tight.

[00 XR8]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

But it did happen... a couple of years ago... in an almost new SBR AU... which Mr Gardner disintegrated against the fences...

There was access to another car, but the rules did not allow a switch... meantime Mr Gardner is a sightseer and Mr Besnard and the Ford mafia were left to manoeuvre him into Mr Seton's factory supported car instead

Plus Mr Bargwanna fenced the HYL car all those years ago... and it was no race for them at the mountain either.

Sorry, I haven't made myself clear enough....... Bathurst is THE event where I think they should look at allowing a spare car, because of the reasons/past cases you mention.

Everywhere else though, I think that spare cars should be prohibited, because of the cost issue....

[Pro Racer]

i think spare cars is good and with most of the poorer teams using customer cars they could use the teams spare car that they are leasing their current vehicle from (should nothing happen to either of their cars) but i still think there is enough teams out there that couldn't afford to do this so it is a little unfair.

[pete60]

Not entirely sure what you just said Proracer but i think you just advanced the "for" and "against" arguments on the one sentence.

There seems to be support for this....how do we get VESA to take note and give it serious thought?

[Pro Racer]

thats the ting i'm on the fence i think great as we wouldn't see championship contenders go down the drain like Jamie he is lucky it wasn't Indy or latter as he would have a hard road back. but then i think not so great for teams like RNR, Britek, PCR who don't have the budget or the spare car.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by 00 XR8

Sorry, I haven't made myself clear enough....... Bathurst is THE event where I think they should look at allowing a spare car, because of the reasons/past cases you mention.

Everywhere else though, I think that spare cars should be prohibited, because of the cost issue....

At the end of the day it could happen at any event, if you are going to have and be able to use a spare for Bathurst why shouldn't you use it at other rounds? You have the spare after all and if you have to prepare it you are only going to do it once. UNLESS you have mega dollars and update it everytime you make a new part. Surely it is still better for the small teams to be out there, even if they don't have the dollars to update the chassis continually.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

1 spare per team, first to need it gets it, but must set a time in it or starts at the back.
888 for example, could take 3 cars to NZ,888,88 & spare. Jamie now runs spare renumbered 88 and gets something for the weekend.

A spare wouldn't require more people to run it, you could have a rule that it can only be used once the main car is considered "totalled" for the weekend, and no going back.

If a team were to wreck 2 cars in a meeting, well-bad luck. You could possibly cannibalise one car to get the other going again, but that would be it.

1 spare car per team would hinder the 2 cars teams. For instance, the F1s at Spa a few years back, where most of the field was taken out. Suggest both drivers are taken out, 1 misses out, yet a guy in a single car team has a spare.

[Gaz170]

I doubt the one car teams would have a spare anyway. Possibly a couple could get togeather and lease a spare between them. Especially at the flyaway rounds. Maybe at domestic rounds 1 spare per car, with chassis numbers nominated before the event as someone posted earlier.

[Rombles1]

How many cars get wrecked early enough in any race weekend to need a spare? If there was some way of having the worst elegible Holden and the worst elegible Ford, from all of the garages, seconded to use by VESA, as the designated spare car for each make. The first team from each manufacer to wreck their car each weekend has the option of fixing their car or using the "old nail". By using the worst available car of each brand, you keep the incentive there to actually do an all-night fix on a car that might be fixable, as it would be a preferable option to running in the rubbish car. This would mean that if the car really is screwed, you can stick your spare panels on it (or just sticker it up appropriately if that is easier) and your driver can get out there and possibly salvage some points. If you wreck the spare as well, well, you have two cars to fix before the next event.

With the reduction in numbers on the grid anyway, there should be space available in the containers used for the OS rounds, to slot the two official spares in.

The rules governing elegibility to use these spare cars would probably need some tweaking, to ensure that a team that already have a crap car do not just stick it into the wall in order to get access to a slightly-less-crap spare (hence the suggestion to use "the worst" elegible cars you could find). Maybe any driver can only access the car once per season - that might help prevent any deliberate shenanigans.

[F J Nedos]

This issue has obviously come up because of Jamie's unfortunate incident.

How many times has a spare car actually been needed? Those Bathurst incidents mentioned above and Jamie's Hamilton prang are the only ones of late that I can recall. I am talking about a driver/car not being able to be entered into the races because of car damage.

I actually think the spare car is a good idea. How you do it could get interesting.

I think they should do the spare car like it was done in F1. You bring one spare car per team.

Whoever needs it first gets it. F1 did have the advantage though whereby there was only one race per meeting. If a guy needed the spare, he could take it in any session before the race. That isn't something that V8's share.

Would they be allowed to hop into a spare, if say they bin their primary car in race 1? They might need it for races 2 and 3 the following day as an example. Or would they only be able to change to a spare before the first race and that's it? Personally, I think they should be able to change after a race if their original car is kaput.

If they change to a spare, I think they would need to:

• require permission from the officials to use it
• their primary car must be in a state of disrepair for the entire current round
• start from the back of the grid for the up coming race, regardless of any circumstance
• swap the race car engine and any components which are set to meet specific lifespan requirements (gearbox, brakes etc)
• be cleared medically to resume racing, after what would most likely be a big prang

As far as storage or transportation, the teams should be made to leave the spare in the transporter (or shipping container/rig). They can only get the car out if it is needed. Once again, permission from officials would be required.

Personnel to run a third car? No additions would be needed as most teams currently have an extra car. You don't actually run an additional car at a meeting, so you wouldn't need additional pit crew/data acquisition crew and others.

Perhaps the spare car would have to be a car which has already been raced. That could possibly help the larger teams build 3 brand new cars for 2 drivers each year. The lesser funded teams couldn't do this.

I think if someone needs a spare car, they are already going to be disadvantaged. They will already be towards the rear of the field, due to an accident. They would also not be driving the latest and greatest. But if ask Jamie would he prefer to be a commentator, or driving an old beast from the rear of the grid with points potential, I know what his answer would have been.

I also think a spare car would rarely be needed - there hasn't been a huge demand in recent history. Yet it would solve a lot of issues if if were in place. The sponsors would get exposure which they would have otherwise missed out on - just as important for a small team as it is for a large team.

Also, a spare car would be even more handy for O/S races. You can't just duck home or get an overnighter of spares when you are offshore. There is that potential whilst in Australia - the ability to get parts if you really really need them. O/S? Nope, ho hope. Customs, logistics, distance etc.

So bring it in. There you go.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by F J Nedos

How many times has a spare car actually been needed?

That's the real question here, how many times have they been need. I can recall Tasmania 2 years ago where Jamie was out, one of the BJR car's at Bathurst last year and obviously this one over the weekend. That's 3 instances that I can remember vividly over the last 3 years. If there are any more, please add them on.

Most teams have a spare chassis that they can transfer over the running gear from the damaged car. Problem with having a spare car ready to go in the truck is, that it would have to be maintained, set-up for each round and so on. Another set of spare parts that would have to be maintained or purchase for that car, even if the team has a spare parts pool.

I would rather say, than having a spare complete car in the truck, is to allow the teams to carry the spare chassis that would normally sit in the factory just in case anything happens, and make them transfer the running gear over. Would cause them to have some all-nighters getting it ready, but would reduce the advantage that a front end team would have to a back end team, in terms of having a complete car ready to go.