McLaren to scrap MP-19?

[Inigo Montoya]

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story.asp?id=79175

They want a new car by Hungary! What a disaster! Will it pass the safety checks?

[climb]

I just wonder how come they could set new track records only a few weeks ago, with this very same car.... :confused:

[Kicking-back]

That was on a very tight track - Valencia - where having an engine with no power didn't have much of an impact.

That website is just repeating a story in the Guardian, which itself was just speculation.

[006_007]

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story.asp?id=79175

They want a new car by Hungary! What a disaster! Will it pass the safety checks?

I guess this makes up for last year where they did not have a new car, so this year they get two!

TJ

[Schummy]

They should use the MP4-4. It was a reliable car in 1988. Of course they used a Honda engine...

Terrible questions arise in my mind:
Who are going to dare traveling in Newey's next boat? Is it Mercedes powered?
Is McLaren going to make a 2004 "guest" two-passenger F1? Who is invited in the second "roasting" seat? Haug? BMW's president? Bin Laden?
Is McLaren being sponsorized by "Wacky Cars"? Are they getting money performing those stunts?

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by Kicking-back

That website is just repeating a story in the Guardian, which itself was just speculation.

Really? Have you read it? If so, what was the gist of it? That they *should* replace the car by Hungary, or that someone reported that was what they intended on doing?

[Gt_R]

I won't be surprised if they produced an evolution of the 19, with all aspects of the cars being throughly redesigned and a bit less ambitious than the current car. They would really be sorting out the main weaknesses of the car by taking a more conservative route.

If the next car become another lemon, heads would roll..

[Fogelhund]

Here is The Guardian article link.

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/formulao...186537,00.html

[Kicking-back]

The basic jist of the Guardian article is to take quotes not directly related to the story and juxtapose them with speculation of a new car.

Ron has always said there would be big evolutions during the year, that's normal.

But talk of Newey designing "lemons" is rubbish.

It's quite clear the actual car must be bloody good - because an average chassis with that Merc engine would qualify only ahead of the Minardis, such is the lack of power.

[f1truestory]

Does the team allow to bring out an old car during the mid-season? or completely change to something that is totally new?

i suggest lets bring back the MP4-17D with some new parts and they can fight at least with Renault i guess.

[Kicking-back]

But in back to back tests the MP4-19 is quicker than the 17D.

The problem is the engine.

Underpowered and unreliable.

[Gt_R]

I think it's quite impossible to run teh 17D now. Even teams like Minardi put an improvement of a few seconds a lap improvement, and 17D was really stretched out by the 2nd half of last season..it has peaked.

One of the claims of the new car/engine was that the whole car was bloody light, that every part was made to the extreme limit possible to attain the best performance.. Unfortunately they seem to have outdone themselves...resulting in the car being too fragile.

[Inigo Montoya]

Thanks Fogelhound and Kicking-Back. After having read the Guardian article, it looks like the usual media speculation BS.

[Webslinger]

Kicking-Back has hit the nail on the head, despite what Norbert Haug said when being interviewed at the weekend, which was an embarrassment in itself.

For whatever reason Mercedes have lost the plot in a big fashion, and it does not serve any purpose by playing ostrich to the media. Tell a reporter that you do not have an engine problem when things go 'bang', is worse than waving the proverbial red flag to a bull!

[avsfan733]

he made public his frustration by keeping his foot firmly on the throttle until the car ground to a halt, ensuring that the resultant fuel fire at the back of the car lasted as long as possible.

If that is true it is really very innapropriate on Kimis part and shows that he may not have matured as much as one thinks, if not its innapropriate speculation that somethign should be said about to the guardian

[903cc]

Is the Mercedes-Benz Motor still made by Ilmor? If so does Mercedes own any of Ilmor. If the engine is made by Ilmor and Mercedes only Subcontract to them then I think Merc will be looking for changes.

If all the above is rubbish please disregard this post!

[F1Pete]

Mercedes has been accustomed to engine failure for years now. I believe the engine has blown at Hockenheim at least a couple of times in the presence of thousands of Mercedes employees. You would think that with this happening continuously that Merc would put their foot down and take over the design of the engine entirely. You can be sure that there is some finger pointing going on between Ilmor and Merc. I really can't see the 19 being scrapped. It has been developed for the last two seasons now (18+19).

It's wierd now that when I see a Mercedes road car (which is extremely rare) that I wouldn't want to buy one. I would take a BMW instead (if I won the lottery). It is so true that what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday.

(Note to self...I still would not want to buy a Ferrari due to sheer bitterness)

[Glen]

Well David Coulthard says there is a lot more wrong with it than just the engine. It lacks corner speed and grip, especially in higher speed corners. If it were just down to a single factor they might be just about ok, but it isn't and they're not - they are in deep wotsit. Condisering that the MP4-19 was essentially a more conservative iteration of the ill fated MP4-18 this is very worrying, because they have repeated the very same errors over the span of about eighteen months. The suspicion that the development of the new Paragon centre and also the company's other interests (eg. building supercars) has overstretched them and diluted their focus is impossible to avoid - there are deep-seated reasons for their lack of form and the most worrying thing is that those reasons aren't going to disappear anytime soon.

[Kicking-back]

A lot of the handling issues come from having to compromise the set up - ie run less downforce - because of the deficient engine.

It's easy to finger point and blame this and that, but the biggest single laptime improvement would come from having a competitive engine in the car.

[shiny side up!]

Really not a new story (see thread link below):

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=49754

Clearly Mac must do something to stop from falling through the grid, hopefully a new or b-spec car in a few races will prove more driveable and less fragile than the current one...

[Glen]

Keep your faith, kb, because that's what being a fan is all about. I'm afraid you're looking at a very long uphill struggle though - check this comment from DC (F1.net):

Coulthard admitted that the silver contender lacks 'speed on the straights.' But it's also not great in the middle, and on the exit, of corners. 'Positional ability is difficult,' said DC, 'so that's where you lose time.'

It isn't simply a question of lacking total downforce it seems to me. and what about Renault? They have struggled for engine power for three years, but their corner speeds and traction are the class of the field.

[Kicking-back]

DC is being diplomatic because no one in the McLaren team will publicly criticise Mercedes.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Glen
Coulthard admitted that the silver contender lacks 'speed on the straights.' But it's also not great in the middle, and on the exit, of corners. 'Positional ability is difficult,' said DC, 'so that's where you lose time.'

So it is good under braking then

Originally posted by Kicking-back
DC is being diplomatic because no one in the McLaren team will publicly criticise Mercedes.

Which is the way it should be, he is being professional. Anyway they are a team, they succeed and fail together. The chassis and engine are developed together nowadays. They aren't just bolt on engines nowadays and that is the same with engine suppliers - they are part of the team. One and the same.

[Glen]

I don't see why DC shoud tell it other than the way it is - he knows JPM is going to be in his seat soon enough.

I ask again - why would McLaren run lower downforce when Renault have conclusively proved that a deficiency in power can effectively be countered with higher downforce and better corner speed? You have to conclude, surely, that the higher downforce level simply isn't available to them, or that the aerodynamic efficiency of the McLaren isn't very good and that they therefore can't afford to go that route. I'm watching the testing with great interest.

[Kicking-back]

They've found some pace in Barcelona - now they need more power and reliability.