Bike vs Car Marshals (merged)

[gravel_monkey]

before we go any further, this is not a slagging post! while at oulton on saturday i noticed a few things and would like to discuss them, before i get on to them i would like to point out that when they were need the boys and girls in orange were excellent as usual and i cant fault them in anyway!!!
what i would like to discuss and what i seen..
at a corner, as an example cascades, there were 4 guys there, all stood next to the box, no one at either end of the barrier and no fire cover at fosters loop like we have with the cars. is this standard with bike meetings judging by were if they come off they will go?
also two things that may be common practice and i honestly dont want to get anyone into trouble but i would like to know if it is common. first marshals crossing track in mid race, i understand that sometimes if incidents dictate then it is essential but this was just the norm between laps and 2nd marshals cars/bikes parked trackside. although behind the barrier is this the norm at bike meets. this tickled me as we couldnt get away with at car meets. as i said i dont want to get anyone in trouble, iam just curious as when they were need all the people there were excelent!

[motorsportmarshal61]

what i can say about this one gravel monkey
as you know i do bike meetings in orange
but most of marshals including sector marshal were not the the regular marshals that do oulton park these were derby pheonix club marshals
for some unknown reason the cmmc marshals were not required for this meeting hope this helps
ken

[Stack]

Slightly off topic but I always worry for the safety of bike marshals. They seem to dash out from the posts to an incident with scant regard for other incomming bikes/riders.
I remember seeing at a GP, 7 - yes SEVEN - marshals wrestling with a fallen 125 bike seeming to all be pulling in different directions!

[Stuart H]

I was watching the moto gp the other day. Rider down 3 marshals went to the bike yet no one went to check the rider. He must of been in some sort of pain as he was rolling around on the floor.

Call me what you want but is it normal practise for bike marshals to grab the bike and leave the said rider on the floor?

[Stack]

I have limited knowledge of bike marshalling but when the Super Side where at the DTM round at Brands last year each post had a paramedic on it responsible for the welfare of the riders

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by Stuart H

I was watching the moto gp the other day. Rider down 3 marshals went to the bike yet no one went to check the rider. He must of been in some sort of pain as he was rolling around on the floor.

Call me what you want but is it normal practise for bike marshals to grab the bike and leave the said rider on the floor?

The main reason why more marshals go for the bike is...unlike its rider,it cant move by itself,therefore it imposes a danger to others on the circuit or gravel traps ect.
Like stack said,on the big meets,you got a paramedic on each post.
Paramedics to Rider
Marshals to Bike.
for club meetings,if its a big fall or bike on track,then it`s a medical or technical red flag

[Stuart H]

Thanks Gary. Thats ansered one of my many questions in life.

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by Stuart H

Thanks Gary. Thats ansered one of my many questions in life.

As long as it reduces the stress of you not knowing the answer,
i more than willing to spread my wealth of knowledge....

[Stuart H]

It does it does!!

[gravel_monkey]

Originally Posted by Stack

Slightly off topic but I always worry for the safety of bike marshals. They seem to dash out from the posts to an incident with scant regard for other incomming bikes/riders.
I remember seeing at a GP, 7 - yes SEVEN - marshals wrestling with a fallen 125 bike seeming to all be pulling in different directions!

as joels point states. the only bike meet i done i got told to leave the rider and go for the bike first. if the rider is still down when u have moved the bike then go for the rider. in all honesty i can see the point in that

[motorsportmarshal61]

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

as joels point states. the only bike meet i done i got told to leave the rider and go for the bike first. if the rider is still down when u have moved the bike then go for the rider. in all honesty i can see the point in that

what i may add to this one is our section leader and most section leaders infact at oulton park makes sure that two go to the bike and at least one goes to the rider everytime including the section leader these are usually there first or close second

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

as joels point states. the only bike meet i done i got told to leave the rider and go for the bike first. if the rider is still down when u have moved the bike then go for the rider. in all honesty i can see the point in that

Also,if the rider is still down,the sector marshal would have put it a request for medical assistance,which will be there without delay.
to be honest,if he`s hurt,its a job for the medics.

At club meets,where i`m sector marshal,if i have to call in a faller,the incident boys/girls will deal with the bike.
I`ll go straight to the rider,as i have the radio,i can make an on the spot decision.
But normally you get used to them falling,if the rider does try and get up,which is common,you can tell by there body language if they are hurt.

As i do a fair split between car & bike marshalling,you do use 2 different set of rules for dealing with incidents

[gwar]

Originally Posted by Stack

Slightly off topic but I always worry for the safety of bike marshals. They seem to dash out from the posts to an incident with scant regard for other incomming bikes/riders.
I remember seeing at a GP, 7 - yes SEVEN - marshals wrestling with a fallen 125 bike seeming to all be pulling in different directions!

Yes that was a tad excessive, the norm for a 125 is 1 person to bike, 2 if its in gravel or badly damaged....no more,
Know 600cc superstocks/supersports and super bikes are very heavy and normally take 3 marshalls (if bike is damaged) 2 to strap back wheel and drag and 1 on clutch and steering.........

Most of us team up in three,s..........2 for bike, and ere indoors usually gets the rider to saftey (she like,s chasing men in leathers.... )
The big meetings we allways have paramedics on post (or the hots spots at least)
And were all trained in use of spine board(scoop) and helmet removal, if required, although 99% of riders will move them selves off the track even when injured........
I,m sure you can appreciate that any debris/ fluid on the racing line can be a recipe for disaster, so some times at the begining of races when theres a big gap, or even with race control direction via sector marshal radio, the track is sometimes checked........for oil or cleared of bodywork, ie; knee sliders, fairings ect....

[JohnnyFiama]

I was at the British Superbikes meeting at Silverstone this weekend and was surprised at the "enthusiasm" of the marshals. Their first reaction on a bike going down was to run on to the track seemingly with no thought for their own safety. They struck me as very brave or very stupid.

Although I don't marshal any more I was a marshal at Silverstone for 5 or 6 years and I remember lots of talks and advice on when it was and wasn't a good idea to get on the track.

Are there different rules for bike and car marshals? On Sunday there were 3 or 4 guys in the middle of the Woodcote chicane picking up a Triumph whilst the pack weaved its way around them. Down at Abbey a guy fell off at the hairpin and within seconds the marshals were trying to move it despite the rest of the field entering the hairpin at pretty much racing speeds.... I have to admit I'd have been thinking if that guy had fallen off perhaps there was oil down, perhaps the next rider through will do the same thing.

It just struck me as pretty risky, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[Dave Brand]

[edited to say threads now merged]

[MattFord]

It is a very diifernet expirence:

One you open the tin box to see if the drivers ok, the other you see it happen!

Cars wait for the flag or tail to go by, bike's they go for it straigt away.

Cars, second marshal goes with fire bottle. Bikes you come back for it.

This list goes on....it's difficult to do both....

[CombeMarshal]

lets just say I wont Marshal bikes anymore!

[Col_Rugby]

I was a marshal at the BSB. It looks unsafe but let me assure it's not. Until you have been through Racesafe or a bike clubs training you will find it difficult to understand.So long as the rider is up & moving then the main priority is the bike. That can do a lot of damage & injury to another rider/s. that's why it becomes a must to get it moved. Yes it is a totally different way of marshaling, but I never fear for my safety so long as you have your eyes & ears open, & trust in your spotter & I/O. Alot of information is coming over the radio to you as well. Also the riders are extremely aware of yellow flags & more so an "oil" flag which is usually out if a bike has gone down until it can be confirmed the track is ok. So therefore if they see waved yellows & an "oil" flag together then thet know the chances are there's a marshal on or near the track & back off.
Some people like Lee will not marshal bikes, their perogative, others like myself, GWAR, Gachjoel & others throughly enjoy it, as much as we do cars.
I know of one car marshal who did their first ever bike meeting yesterday, throughly enjoyed it & was off the bank on a live track.I can guarantee that he would not get of the bank at all if he didn't think it was safe to do so.I think he'll be back. A couple of the I/O's yesterday were rescue crew for the Britcar 24hr, as was our groundpost Doctor yesterday.
Last couple of things from me.

Don't knock it until you've tried it. It is good fun & just as dangerous as cars but YOU make it as safe as YOU can.

& please let's not turn this into a "slagging knocking match". Those that marshal bikes are not unsafe & dangerous as some have tried (& failed) in the past to make out.

I'm sure Gary & a couple of other "bike" marshals will be along to give their opinion soon.

Col

PS. If anyone is marshaling the final BSB meeting at Brands PM if you want to meet up for a pint or 2.
PPS got to Racesafe's website if you're interested in marshaling BSB, WSB next year as they're now taking names for next years intake of new marshals.

[gachjoel]

Hi Col,
I don`t think there is anything left to say...

It all comes down to personal preference,it also comes down to trusting the riders,sometimes it looks worse than what it is and i have seen occasions where marshals have gone to pick up a bike in a position that i would deem unsafe.
But this no different with car marshals,i`ve seen some unsavoury acts of marshalling.

Don`t forget,most of these bike marshals have been doing it for years and they do have their wits about them.

[Col_Rugby]

I think Mr Brand says it all with

while most of us

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by Col_Rugby

I think Mr Brand says it all with

while most of us

and the rest of us go........

[warweezil]

I guess that now I'm gonna have to experience bikes at least once.... might prove to be fun.

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by warweezil

I guess that now I'm gonna have to experience bikes at least once.... might prove to be fun.

Well you can sample them at pembrey on 17/18 Oct

[warweezil]

Yeah I think I might be there.. T.T. too - as today is his last day at the old job and next week he moves to more normal hours/days.. he is really more of a bike fan than me.

[MADMAX999]

I am sure people just like to provoke a petty arguement by raising this topic yet again.........
I do cars and bikes (32 years) and will just say that the riders are much more fragile, thats why you have to react very quickly to any incident. Your aim is to deal with medical condition of the fallen rider and make safe the area for all the other riders at the same time. Standing back to watch the rest of the field approach an incident/obstruction on a blind bend at 160mph+ is not an option.
So, just leave the bike marshals alone to do there job, or join them and be trained to deal with bikes in a way that works very well.

Ps. If you want to debate the subject, I will be at Paddock Bend for the BSB final next weekend.