BTCC General Discussion Thread

[Steel Wheels]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

small question

is Tony Gilham involved in any way with BMR Restart or is he completely out of the picture ?


and does Team Dynamics have a replacement driver ready for Matt Neal's mandatory broken finger in summer brake ?

I think Gilham was mentioned as 'an advisor' to BMR in the pre-season press! What that exactly means though I'm not sure!

On a separate topic does anyone know if anyone publishes a 'super grid' for the combined qualifying performances over the season?

[thetool]

Originally Posted by Steel Wheels

What that exactly means though I'm not sure!

He's definitely still hanging around the garages.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

I posted this on the Oulton Park race weekend thread, but:

2014:

Post-Oulton Park:

RWD poles: 1
RWD wins: 4
FWD poles: 3
FWD wins: 8

but

Pre-Oulton Park:

RWD Poles: 0
RWD Wins: 2 (both from reversed grids)
FWD Poles: 3
FWD Wins: 7

Maybe the next time a factory team wins, Pirtek, WSR, Motorbase, etc, can complain about how they have far less funding, etc etc...

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

...if I was Plato I'd be grateful that Andy Jordan had a bad weekend, because that will be a very rare occurrence in the next few seasons...

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

I posted this on the Oulton Park race weekend thread, but:

2014:

Post-Oulton Park:

RWD poles: 1
RWD wins: 4
FWD poles: 3
FWD wins: 8

but

Pre-Oulton Park:

RWD Poles: 0
RWD Wins: 2 (both from reversed grids)
FWD Poles: 3
FWD Wins: 7

Maybe the next time a factory team wins, Pirtek, WSR, Motorbase, etc, can complain about how they have far less funding, etc etc...

Plato and Ian Harrison have double standards for sure or should I say triple standards

they dominated Donington and Thuxton was largely dominated by FWD Hondas yet you didn't hear Dick Bennets or Colin etc moan about FWD advantage and that they need to be pegged back

[BtccLee]

So, reading in Motorsport News today, the Rear Wheel Drive Cars are to have a fixed first gear ratio as of Croft. Now, before this degenerates into a lambasting of supposed “Plato” bias, I do not think this is necessarily a bad move.

Not quoting directly but Gow basically suggested this is merely designed to take away their start line advantage, nothing else. Rob Austin seemed fairly unconcerned although Dick Bennets was not exactly thrilled, saying that it will increase costs. I am no expert, so could someone explain how that increase in costs comes, not doubting Dick at all.

There was a discussion on Touring Car Times and Ian Harrison of 888 responded to a fan whom was not exactly enamoured with the Rear Wheel Drive critics. Harrison explained that the only issue he was concerned with was the start line advantage and removing emotion from it, I do see his points.

This move will not remove any other advantage the Rear Wheel Drive cars have; each type of car will have different characteristics. However, the Rear Wheel Drive starts are clearly disproportionally faster than anything Front Wheel Drive of the start and I understand why this should be restricted. A Rear Wheel Drive car only needs to start on the second and occasionally the third row and so long as the driver gets the start right, he will probably lead by turn one. I can see how this isn’t correct; it does diminish the role of a fast qualifying time. Whilst this may not have been as relevant in 2012 and to a lesser degree 2013 when the BMW’s were less competitive and the field more spread out in terms of pace, now the cars are qualifying near the front and the field is closer together, it is logical.

Also, the clamp down on driving standards means that Rear Wheel Drive Cars lose a major disadvantage, their susceptible nature to contact. They have other advantages, they still look after their tyres better and do not have to switch tyres in qualifying, meaning they are less at risk of a weather change. Is there a disparity in how their tyres warm up, I thought it was slower than Front Wheel Driver cars but this may not be the case now? Whether it is or is not the case, to me there are still sufficient differences between Front and Rear Wheel Driver Cars to ensure we have both types competitive at different points in a race and, arguably more importantly, still entered in the championship.

[Sodemo]

Well that's all fine. Do the RWD cars get a softer tyre then to use as a sweetner for the deal? Nope... How about just a softer front tyre to help in the early laps bring them up to temperature? Nope...

[BtccLee]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Well that's all fine. Do the RWD cars get a softer tyre then to use as a sweetner for the deal? Nope... How about just a softer front tyre to help in the early laps bring them up to temperature? Nope...

Do they need it? No. They hold their tyres better, the slower start is compensated for at the end of the race. And whereas Rear Wheel Drive Cars take a lap or two to warm up their tyres, Front Wheel Drive Cars will lose grip from around half way through the race. Advantage Rear Wheel Drive.

And this is Gow's view, regarding team comments and how TOCA go about their investigations:

"We certainly don't and won't react to whomever complains longest or loudest - what a complete mess that would get us into.

We deal with things in a measured, non-emotive and responsible way. And to use a cricketing expression, I think we've got the 'runs on the board' to demonstrate that we are pretty good at knowing what to do and how to do it."

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

Do they need it? No. They hold their tyres better, the slower start is compensated for at the end of the race. And whereas Rear Wheel Drive Cars take a lap or two to warm up their tyres, Front Wheel Drive Cars will lose grip from around half way through the race. Advantage Rear Wheel Drive.

And this is Gow's view, regarding team comments and how TOCA go about their investigations:

"We certainly don't and won't react to whomever complains longest or loudest - what a complete mess that would get us into.

We deal with things in a measured, non-emotive and responsible way. And to use a cricketing expression, I think we've got the 'runs on the board' to demonstrate that we are pretty good at knowing what to do and how to do it."

In most races, its the BMW which have eaten through their rear tyres and are struggling. I have yet to see a race where the RWD cars are making up lots of positions / and / or time in the last laps.

Gow states that they won't do kneejerk reactions or bow to pressure, yet, if what is being reported is true (RWD cars having a fixed longer first gear from Croft onwards) then that seems exactly like what has happened...?

[steve_r]

If this is NOT a kneee jerk reaction to the whining of Plato et al following BMW's great weekend, then why now? RWD cars had a start line advantage all last season, and nothing was done about it then.

[psq43]

Exactly right
Wont bow to he who shouts loudest....

No knee jerk reaction....

Wow, Alan treating us ticket buying fans all with total contempt there then by bowing to he who shouted loudest and a knee jerk that would make most medical examiners smile

Again, a director of the BRDC, the most winning driver in the btcc, someone who brings in another marque, someone who brings in a top level nationally recognised brand as title sponsor, speaks, and gets support from his team manager, who also happens to be one of the longest serving team manager's, very loyal to the btcc, to echo his comments and we get this

Deplorable and hardly professional despite whatever Mr Gow says

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

It's a joke! An absolute joke!

[rdjones]

Going back to the S2000 days I remember seeing the RWD BMW making some cracking starts and there was known of this back then.

[S griffin]

Funny how Gow has decided to introduce this rule after all the moaning. Coincidence or what?

Every car has it's strength and weakness, which the FWD teams seem to forget. The RWD cars don't moan apart the FWD advantages do they?

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Every car has it's strength and weakness, which the FWD teams seem to forget. The RWD cars don't moan apart the FWD advantages do they?

That's precisely why I dislike this rule. Iirc, the fixed gear ratios were part of the BTCC for a while, but that was abolished for the NGTC era, and I think it was something to do with turbo boost levels in 2011 (i.e. the last time Plato's constant moaning changed the BTCC regs)

Plato and Harrison should realise that, despite their car being great around Oulton (see 2013 - and I don't recall any subsequent moaning!) and them having a champion driver with a champion team, they were beaten by RWD cars which are also great around Oulton (see 2014!) with a similarly great team. Plato seems to believe that he is the best driver in the field, and he's certainly one of them, but the Turks/BMW combo simply outdid the Plato/MG combo. However, because Plato refuses to believe it's anything driver related (most of the time with good reason, tbh), it has to be the car, and if a car is faster than his car, than it must be pegged back so that nothing can beat him. Yes he's competitive and wants to win, and there's nothing wrong with that, but the fact that his blatant ear-bending actually gets stuff done is ridiculous. TOCA themselves are becoming a bit of a laughing stock, as they seem to cave in to Plato's demands whenever his cries for help are loud enough.

Whilst it's clear the RWD cars have better starts than FWD cars, the FWD cars often get the positions back in the races - it is rare that they don't in many cases. But at Oulton Park, because of the lack of overtaking opportunities, all the RWD cars had to do was to make great starts and then drive defensively if they had to, and that's exactly what Rob Austin did in race 2. This "issue" has nothing to do with the RWD cars being unfairly advantaged, but that the RWD cars were advantaged at Oulton Park due to precisely these reasons. But if a FWD could've lead into turn 1 and drive the same sort of race, they could've won a race. Oh wait, that's exactly what Árón Smith did in race 3.

The whole "issue" isn't an issue at all, it's just Plato being a moaner. Why TOCA have changed the regulations is totally ludicrous.

That's my opinion on the matter, but it has just as much factual basis as Plato's argument!

[porsche962fan]

Dick Bennets claims that FWD cars have an unfair advanatge in qualy because they can lock the diffs and get slightly faster lap times while with RWD they can't do so in essence the fast RWD stars balances this out


BTW anyone noticed MENU may end up with Jack Sears Trophy ... at least he won't go home empty handed this season

[porsche962fan]

well Plato moaned now TOCA su**d up to him


RWD slapped with mandatory 1st gear from Croft onwards

maybe Dick Bennets and Colin should constantly moan about FWD advanatge

[BillWiskins]

I was no more privy to TOCA's discussions about this than anyone else here was, but it sounds to me like a lot of people seem to be giving Mr Plato a little too much credit...

[BtccLee]

Originally Posted by BillWiskins

I was no more privy to TOCA's discussions about this than anyone else here was, but it sounds to me like a lot of people seem to be giving Mr Plato a little too much credit...

It is ridiculous. If Turkington was in the MG and Plato the BMW and perhaps Turkington complained about the starts, nobody would give a damn if it was changed. They would be glad and probably have been claiming it was unfair in the first place. That is from an Ebay Motors fan.

[psq43]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

It is ridiculous. If Turkington was in the MG and Plato the BMW and perhaps Turkington complained about the starts, nobody would give a damn if it was changed. They would be glad and probably have been claiming it was unfair in the first place. That is from an Ebay Motors fan.

Dont talk wet

Please don't confuse the Honda vs MG fanboy mentality with what's fairly obvious to most here for reasons mention too many times, by too many people for me to really need to point out

[Tja]

Originally Posted by psq43

Dont talk wet

Please don't confuse the Honda vs MG fanboy mentality with what's fairly obvious to most here for reasons mention too many times, by too many people for me to really need to point out

As you may remember, Plato wasn't the only one complaining in 2010 and 2011, he was just always the loudest. This doesn't mean no one else complains behind closed doors. Plato probably does the most interviews of all drivers, so it's hardly surprising to hear and read his opinion more than the others.
I'm surprised no one picked up on this:

Originally Posted by autosport.com

Reigning champion Andrew Jordan agreed something should be done about the RWD starts, which often take them past the cars on the row ahead.
"Yep, the BMWs are quick," he said. "The problem is we now go to Croft and you'd expect Colin to take two wins there.
"I'd be putting in a longer first gear, but I don't know what else they can do."

Harvey already said in commentary at Brands that TOCA was looking at the RWD starting advantage and it's not really surprising to see them react now before Croft. And if I remember correctly, the longer first gear didn't mean the BMWs lost places at the start, they just didn't gain as many as before. It's not like their cold tyres in the first few laps made them loose the four places they gained at the start either.

[PandaKing]

Now I know there have been complains that TOCA let the RWD manufacturers adjust the position of the engine in the subframe to improve weight distribution (Steve Neal and Thorney have mentioned it), so perhaps this is required in the interests of closer racing, but the timing doesn't help sway the knee-jerk reaction.

I for one hope this is a temporary solution until TOCA give a opportunity to the FWD cars to IMPROVE their cars rather than handicapping the RWD machines. Because right now nothing is being done to improve the RWD weaknesses.

For clarity I am a Turkington fan and eBay fan. I'd also add that I find the starting speed differential particularly exciting, especially when you see the likes of Plato defend it.

[S griffin]

I just think it is wrong to bring this in mid season. If it was weight added on I would have accepted it, but to add in a mechanical change is wrong.

[BtccLee]

I suppose it would not be a proper season without a bit of controversy involving the Lord God of Evil Jason Plato and his accomplice Alan Gow doing something dastardly.

Hold on. Let us apply some logic here. Several driver’s of Front Wheel Drive touring cars in the BTCC have complained about the starts of the Rear Wheel Drive touring cars since the end of last year. After BMW domination at Oulton Park, this criticism grew more vocal and more general. Drivers said the BMW’s had an unfair advantage in general, they needed extra ballast etc. etc.

Meanwhile, from the first round at Brands Hatch, Alan Gow and TOCA had stated they would be reviewing the Rear Wheel Drive start advantage. Having dismissed the calls for a penalty to be imposed immediately, they waited and did as they said they would, reviewed this advantage after several rounds.

With several notable occasions of Rear Wheel Drive cars edging closer to the front and then making up several places almost instantaneously, the benefits of this advantage were increasing. So TOCA did as they said they would consider and implemented a longer first gear ratio.

Hold on again. TOCA, at the mercy of Jason Plato, decided to add a longer first gear that only affects Rear Wheel Drive cars at the start and makes them as fast as Front Wheel Driver cars, not slower? They do not add extra weight, to slow them down in general, much more effective in closing up the racing.

Then Alan Gow says to Autosport: “There is no issue with the lap times of the BMW’s so it is complete nonsense for anyone to suggest they should have extra weight.” Publically saying that the expectations of the one they so loyally follow are “nonsense”. That is harmonious.

Yes there was more complaining about the Rear Wheel Drive advantage after Oulton but that had no effect on TOCA’s decision in my view. They were watching the situation closely, Oulton made up their mind.

Quoting Gow again: “All teams know we have the option of mandating the longer first gear.” So this is not a rule pulled out of thin air. And why tell the teams this unless it was being considered in the first place?

Just to round it off, apparently the situation will be reviewed after a couple of rounds. So if the Rear Wheel Drive cars get duffed up at the start, expect another change.

Oh and is this not the TOCA that demoted Plato to fourth in race three after he punted Turkington out of the podium position? They gave the position to a Rear Wheel Drive car, taking it away from their master. Such points may decide the title. The Plato/TOCA relationship is clearly sorted into winning JP the title and denying it for the BMW of hero Turkington. Fantastic plot. Brilliant cast. If only any of it was true.

[BillWiskins]

You know when someone opens a window and lets all the fresh air in? Yeah, that. Great post, Mr Lee, thanks for bringing a bit of common sense and reason back to the discussion.