HSCC Saloons / Historic Racing Saloons Register (HRSR)

[simon drabble]

Terry are you saying that JR naturally always has the contrarian view?!

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I have never seen JR write a post in such depth before so clearly this is something he feels passionately about rather than being his normal mischevious stirrer!
I thin the point is this - is HRSR a 1966 group 5 series? If so then 2 litre Alfa's have no place, nor do 2 litre LC's. Peter and teh rest of teh committee have to understand that if you are an FIA V8 then you will race with them as you can still win but if you are an FIA Lotus Cortina (for example) you are not going to enjoy being blown into history by hot rod L-C's and Anglia's as it is demoralizing and to be frank wrong!
If the cars were only allowed period mods (rather than some of the internals that they currently run under HRSR rules) then it would be more realistic.
Peter - if you had an FIA Lotus Cortina or Anglia would you race with HRSR or would you choose a series that is only FIA so you ran where you should in field?

I would do both as I (naturally) believe the series caters for both ends of the spectrum.
Also, remember that the HRSR series was created in 1986 and I think I am right in saying that there were no FIA App K races for saloons in those days.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Ultimatly, the various clubs are to blame for ALL of the unrest concerning illegal engines etc etc. IF these series had been better policed when they started,I doubt there would be so much backlash now! Because of the amount of publicity that has arisen,anything new HAS to be one hundred percent correct,otherwise there will be another bout of this unrest in the years to come. Simon,JR a stirrer? bit harsh dont you think.

Terry
I am not sure if your comments about clubs allowing illegal engines is directed at HRSR. Oversize engines, for some, are not illegal in HRSR and we do actively police engine capacities having checked several over the last three seasons ( all being spot on) and we have now appointed a technical team to oversee our Tech Regs.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I would do both as I (naturally) believe the series caters for both ends of the spectrum.
Also, remember that the HRSR series was created in 1986 and I think I am right in saying that there were no FIA App K races for saloons in those days.

That is a gallant stance Peter but how would you feel if you were in an FIA car being lapped by an HRSR car which to the outsider looked the same - I think that you would agree it would be demoralizing. That is why the bulk of the FIA cars that run with HRSR are, as Roger says, V8's.

I think that is a great shame as a domestic series for FIA cars would be a great place to race for people like me who cant afford to travel round Europe and would encourage me to buy an FIA saloon and race it with HSCC/HRSR. Call it ego but I dont want to race a small engine FIA car and be blown away by what I think of as hot rods

[John Turner]

Question; are there enough cars to have two separate domestic series at the same meetings? Or perhaps the question should be, would there be more interest (and therefore greater numbers) if two such series existed?

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

That is a gallant stance Peter but how would you feel if you were in an FIA car being lapped by an HRSR car which to the outsider looked the same - I think that you would agree it would be demoralizing. That is why the bulk of the FIA cars that run with HRSR are, as Roger says, V8's.

I think that is a great shame as a domestic series for FIA cars would be a great place to race for people like me who cant afford to travel round Europe and would encourage me to buy an FIA saloon and race it with HSCC/HRSR. Call it ego but I dont want to race a small engine FIA car and be blown away by what I think of as hot rods

We try and equalise by using weight but I know we may not have it right yet. Roger was very competitive and wasn't lapped by any car in 2007 if I remember correctly.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Question; are there enough cars to have two separate domestic series at the same meetings? Or perhaps the question should be, would there be more interest (and therefore greater numbers) if two such series existed?

Probably not at most race meetings. Also it would fragment what we, in our way, are trying to unite, or at least provide a playing field as level as possible.

[simon drabble]

look the best news is that in another few weeks we can stop talkiing about it and actually start racing again!!!

[morninggents]

Agreed.

However, Roger's original comments are valid and everybody should vote.

I'm now off to Goodwood to see if they will let my oversize engined FIA none compliant Cortina play. Should be welcomed with open arms as it's a smidgen under 25% oversize.

[simon drabble]

I will see you there then!

[terence]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Terry
I am not sure if your comments about clubs allowing illegal engines is directed at HRSR. Oversize engines, for some, are not illegal in HRSR and we do actively police engine capacities having checked several over the last three seasons ( all being spot on) and we have now appointed a technical team to oversee our Tech Regs.

No,not at all.But you do have to agree that if there had not been so many blind eyes turned in the past,there would not be so much bad feeling on the Cheats side of things. My first comment was a generalization,not aimed at any person or club individually.I take it by oversize,you are referring to above the FIA stated size?. Over-all I personally think that the HSCC is[ at the moment] the best policed there is,long may those standards stand.

[zefarelly]

there are more than enough cars to ruin 2 series, I would dearly love to see that as I wouldn't mind a gp5 Broadspeed anglia myself as well as an FiA Cortina

I also think theres enough cars for a seperate yanks tank series ( see Motorsport and the new proposed French series) so Gp2 pre66 could remain european if you like

Peter,I personally think the weight idea is a case of bolting the door after the bull has charged, and having just read the regs again there's a big gulf between HRSR/App K cars IMO

[Peter Mallett]

This is quite an interesting debate. Two points that I'd like clarified.

First. Is the suggestion that there are not enough FIA and HRSR cars for two series in the UK valid, and on what basis is that statement made?

Second. If the former is true does that mean that those who built FIA cars automatically cost themselves money because they can only race in Europe?

[terence]

You know,one thing I would dearly love to happen over here,is for a 100% legal FIA sanctioned Series to be started.There ARE enough cars/drivers out there who would welcome it I'm sure.Currently there are[i belive] only two such series available and one of those is for single seaters ,Lurani,and everyone I've spoken to thinks it,s brilliant.

[Andy Bacon]

If the information I have received from the Masters Series -incuding personal correspondance- is correct, and they do what they say they are going to do regarding cheating, then genuine App K cars do have somewhere to go. However, there will either be a lot of empty grid spaces or a big run on genuine App K V8 engines and some very much slower cars this year.
I think you'll find Goodwood taking a distinctly different approach this year as well.
It would be nice if Spa would do the same for the six hour. Without naming names or cars some of the lap times last year defied rationale.

[terence]

No need to name anyone,the lap times speak for themselves,it's bloody obvious who had the big engines.
I really do hope the Masters Series does what they claim,it would/could become the Premier Series of the UK,then perhaps they could apply for the FIA to sanction them.Sort of a Historic FIA Cup affair.

[Good Times]

Andy, nice to see you are still envolved. Will you race this year.
Yes it looks like Masters have cleaned up there ship.
One thing I noted was the winner of there award for Oldies But Goldies last year was Richard Postins with his Mk2 A40.
I see the rules are for car built pre Jan 1960.
The Mk2 A40 did not start production until Sept 1961, would that meen his car is on the scrap heap.
If they stick to the rules, YES!
Anybody have a Mk1 shell they can give him, as he deserves to continue.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

there are more than enough cars to ruin 2 series, I would dearly love to see that as I wouldn't mind a gp5 Broadspeed anglia myself as well as an FiA Cortina

I also think theres enough cars for a seperate yanks tank series ( see Motorsport and the new proposed French series) so Gp2 pre66 could remain european if you like

Peter,I personally think the weight idea is a case of bolting the door after the bull has charged, and having just read the regs again there's a big gulf between HRSR/App K cars IMO

Zeff
It's not a case of bolting the door after the bull as the HRSR was around well before the take off of FIA App K. What we are trying to achieve is providing a playing field for App K cars in HRSR races using weight to compensate for superior specifications.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

This is quite an interesting debate. Two points that I'd like clarified.

First. Is the suggestion that there are not enough FIA and HRSR cars for two series in the UK valid, and on what basis is that statement made?

Second. If the former is true does that mean that those who built FIA cars automatically cost themselves money because they can only race in Europe?

Generally at, say, Brands Hatch Superprix there will be around 30 saloons of which maybe 10 will be App K. At the lesser meetings such as Snetterton we had 27 cars of which 7 were App K. At Cadwell there were 2 out of 18. The problem is that generally the App K car drivers prefer to pick and choose the higher profile meetings such as the Brands Superprix, Silverstone and the Oulton Park Gold Cup.

HSCC provides a calendar of around 10 races per season for the HRSR series and 3 or 4 are either double headers or 40/45 minute pitstop races.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I will see you there then!

Didn't see you there Simon but I did have a chat with Roger Wills. Unfortunately he then stuffed the Cortina into the barriers with quite severe damage to most panels and the car looked a bit sad. Thankfully Roger looked OK later in the paddock.

[zefarelly]

I didn't mean it quite like that Peter, more that the HRSR regs have evolved from a different period in a certain direction, being 66 and on gp5, and that rather than revert to (IMO) a more economic/period correct specification (ie pre66 gp2) the committee have decided to implement an alternative method to try and level the imbalance between its own regs and pre66 gp2 spec, or App K as it is more commonly known now.

I think the reason you get more App K (gp2) cars at the 'high profile' meetings is also because they're longer races as well, the HRSR races are typically 10-20 minute sprints, whereas App k type races are an hour or more, this all falls into line with the club races and International type race formats.

I'd love to race at Cadwell, but can't justify a weekend on british A roads for a 10 minute dash, its less road driving for me to go to Spa!

[simon drabble]

Sorry to have missed you Peter - Roger did say he saw you. I was there getting steadily more cold as the day progressed! Fortunately as you say it was only metal and pride dented!

Out of curiosity of the FIA cars that you refer to above how many are V8's?

After seeing the Masters at work yesterday and knowing what meetings they have in the UK this year I would naturally lean torwards them and would suggest most strongly that people should make their cars FIA papered if for no other reason than to keep their options open - which incidently is all that I have said for the last 4 years!!!

Masters will continue to grow as will other series like it (Carol Spagg's U2TC) so non FIA cars will become increasingly more irrelevant other than for HRSR.

Yesterday I was impressed by all that I saw yesterday in respect to the level of prep of the cars to the level of organization from Masters...

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Sorry to have missed you Peter - Roger did say he saw you. I was there getting steadily more cold as the day progressed! Fortunately as you say it was only metal and pride dented!

Out of curiosity of the FIA cars that you refer to above how many are V8's?

After seeing the Masters at work yesterday and knowing what meetings they have in the UK this year I would naturally lean torwards them and would suggest most strongly that people should make their cars FIA papered if for no other reason than to keep their options open - which incidently is all that I have said for the last 4 years!!!

Masters will continue to grow as will other series like it (Carol Spagg's U2TC) so non FIA cars will become increasingly more irrelevant other than for HRSR.

The majority of the FIA cars are V8s with the odd Cortina and Alfa from time to time. What surprises me is that we don't get more Mini Coopers running in the App K classes as we have found in the past when the odd one has run with us there is less differential between them and an HRSR Mini than there is in the Cortina/Alfa class.

I agree with your comments re Masters' professionalism and we acknowledge that the HRSR caters for the historic saloon driver with more modest budgets. The level of preparation of the cars was very good but most were being looked after by professional preparation outfits whereas the typical HRSR car is prepared by the owner/driver.

[Andy Bacon]

Originally Posted by Good Times

Andy, nice to see you are still envolved. Will you race this year.
Yes it looks like Masters have cleaned up there ship.
One thing I noted was the winner of there award for Oldies But Goldies last year was Richard Postins with his Mk2 A40.
I see the rules are for car built pre Jan 1960.
The Mk2 A40 did not start production until Sept 1961, would that meen his car is on the scrap heap.
If they stick to the rules, YES!
Anybody have a Mk1 shell they can give him, as he deserves to continue.

No, You can use a later donor car: see Masters OBG 2.1.4 hence you can also use a later Minor 1000.

[simon drabble]

Peter I think the "smaller budget" argument is a red herring - you can get into an FIA Anglia for £10k, FIA Mini and FIA Alfa Ti Super for under £20k (which given Penfold's old 2 litre Alfa is similar money makes you realize the differential is not what you might think....

The front running Lotus Cortina's and Mustangs might be more but the front running Jaguar and Yank Tanks in HRSR are similar money

An HRSR car can pretty much just run in HRSR but an FIA car can do Masters, U2TC (if under 2 litres) Spa 6 Hour and of course Goodwood as well as other series. When you start to look at it that way I think the HRSR cars become rather expensive for what they are and your resale market is very limited.....

Prep and running costs should be the same.

Dont get me wrong - I am an HSCC member and love their meetings. I will be running with them this year in Guards Trophy but I will also look to do some Masters rounds and I operate on a shoe string budget....