Rydell's comments

[Alfa Fan]

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=5753

"It is going to be tougher to win STCC than WTCC and the level of the drivers beats BTCC by far," said Rydell.

Well the WTCC is looking very weak this year, but lets not forget that Rydell has been soundly beaten by a number of teammates in the past who will be on that grid.

His comments about the BTCC v STCC driver depth are more interesting though. 2011 has seen an influx of quality drivers into the Scandinavian series so I thought it would be interesting to see how they stack up.

2011

Top 10 BTCC Drivers (based on likely entry)

Jason Plato, Matt Neal, Gordon Shedden, Tom Chilton, Mat Jackson, Tom Onslow-Cole, Rob Collard, Andy Jordan

Top 10 STCC Drivers (based on likely entry)

Richard Goransson, Tommy Rustad, James Thompson, Colin Turkington, Rickard Rydell, Jan Nilsson, Frederik Ekblom, Thomas Engstrom, Jan Magnussen, Jason Watt

I think its a lot closer than Rydell makes out!!

Personally I'd rank them something like this

1. Thompson (STCC) 2. Plato (BTCC) 3. Rydell (STCC) 4. Neal (BTCC) 5. Goransson (STCC) 6. Turkington (STCC) 7. Jackson (BTCC) 8. Shedden (BTCC) 9. Onslow-Cole (BTCC) 10. Rustad (STCC).

Which on a backwards 1-10 points scale leaves

BTCC 22
STCC 30

So whilst he might be right about the STCC field being better, it's not really as clear cut IMO. How Thompson & Turkington fair in STCC will be an interesting indicator.

[Robbe]

WTCC isn't that weak really. They still have some of the best touring car drivers in the world, and it's likely that they'll have 20 entries this year, similar as STCC.

Each series has a number of drivers that could win in any of these three series:
STCC: Turkington, Thompson, Magnussen, Rydell, Göransson, Ekblom, Rustad (Elgaard)
WTCC: Muller, Tarquini, Menu, Huff, Michelisz, Dahlgren, Coronel (Monteiro, Nykjaer)
BTCC: Plato, Neal, Jackson, Shedden, Onslow-Cole (Chilton, Collard)

So STCC is really strong and probably on par with WTCC. BTCC is a little bit weaker in terms of quality but should have more entries and the biggest variety of cars.

[touring fan01]

Doesnt matter if he's right or wrong, the point is that he's competing in that series so obviously he will talk it up as much as possible. What else would he say, that STCC is weaker with drivers than WTCC and BTCC?

[helterskelter]

All in all we should be happy because we have three great series. They have the following strengths IMO:

STCC - Highest quality drivers (and I still would have loved to see Giovanardi and Dahlgren again in the new Scandinavian championship!)

WTCC - Very high quality driver (but in a smaller amount compared to the STCC) and one of the largest full-time grids in the last few years (certainly more than one would have expected)

BTCC - Interesting combination of different cars and still very good drivers.

While the WTCC grid might not see more drivers coming, I would like to note that the STCC and the BTCC both start later in the year, so surprises might still be there to come.

Touring Fan is right about Rydell making those remarks just because he's in the series, but the Swede still made a good point: he will have to face some of the best drivers out there and they have fantastic STCC specialists both in Sweden and in Denmark (Goransson, Nilsson and Magnussen, just to mention a few of them).

Anyway, if I were managing the BTCC, I'd wonder why two super British drivers like Thommo and Turkington elected to go to Scandinavia rather than staying in the UK. Perhaps manfacturers are still an important part of motor racing?

[kipper]

Notwithstanding the potential bias of Rydell's part, I'd suggest that there may be little in terms of quality between the WTCC and STCC (certainly at the front of the field), whilst the BTCC trails them both.

[ascarracinguk]

in the words of Harry Hill FIGHT!!!!!!!!!

really dont know why people dont do a proper job of having an end of year bash, top 10 from btcc, stcc, wtcc racing against eachother, the winner gets to take the race to their home country the next year.

[Jacques Rabbit]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

All in all we should be happy because we have three great series.

That's all that needs to be said, I think.

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Anyway, if I were managing the BTCC, I'd wonder why two super British drivers like Thommo and Turkington elected to go to Scandinavia rather than staying in the UK. Perhaps manfacturers are still an important part of motor racing?

Good point well made and my thoughts exactly. There is clearly more money and/or paid drives on offer in the STCC than the BTCC. There just is'nt the money or manufacturer interest in the UK at the moment. Will it ever change, I'd like to think yes but over to Alan Gow to build the BTCC once more. It's certainly got competition in the STCC now.

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=5753

"It is going to be tougher to win STCC than WTCC and the level of the drivers beats BTCC by far," said Rydell.

Well the WTCC is looking very weak this year, but lets not forget that Rydell has been soundly beaten by a number of teammates in the past who will be on that grid.

His comments about the BTCC v STCC driver depth are more interesting though. 2011 has seen an influx of quality drivers into the Scandinavian series so I thought it would be interesting to see how they stack up.

2011

Top 10 BTCC Drivers (based on likely entry)

Jason Plato, Matt Neal, Gordon Shedden, Tom Chilton, Mat Jackson, Tom Onslow-Cole, Rob Collard, Andy Jordan

.

I am afraid you have supported Rydells comments by suggesting Tom Chilton, Rob Collard and Andy Jordan are top line drivers, Good yes but not top line like STCC is attracting.

[PDS]

Having witnessed the WTCC, BTCC, STCC and the older DTC all I can say is that basically the racing I have seen, is the SAME!

Rydell is bound to say that the STCC is the best, he is in it! Okay the STCC has possibly more 'Touring Car Champions' than the BTCC.

At the end of the day the championship is not measured by how many top line drivers it has. It is down to how close the competition is!

It would be pretty boring if the championship is dominated by just a couple of drivers? AH, that's F1!

And the main reason Thommo and Turkington have gone to the STCC is that they are being PAID to drive! As I'm sure Rydell is.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Hear hear. Right now I think the three championships are very comparable and almost equal in talent level. To me there's a collection of gold drivers - Priaulx, Muller, Gio, Turkington, Huff, Plato, Thommo - spread all over. And then there's a whole host of very good drivers - Neal, Menu, Tarquini, Göransson, Rydell, Ekblom, Magnussen, O'Neill, Shedden, TOC, Michelisz et cetera. If you asked me to pick the strongest championship right now I couldn't give you an answer. And just because noone's mentioned it yet, the DTM probably have the highest level of drivers (even if it bores me to tears).

[rustyfan]

BTCC might not have the strongest field, but it does have the best tracks.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

BTCC might not have the strongest field, but it does have the best tracks.

By a country mile, and they also have the best racing (except the V8's, which is far and away the most exciting series around today).

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by PDS

Having witnessed the WTCC, BTCC, STCC and the older DTC all I can say is that basically the racing I have seen, is the SAME!

Rydell is bound to say that the STCC is the best, he is in it! Okay the STCC has possibly more 'Touring Car Champions' than the BTCC.

At the end of the day the championship is not measured by how many top line drivers it has. It is down to how close the competition is!

It would be pretty boring if the championship is dominated by just a couple of drivers? AH, that's F1!

And the main reason Thommo and Turkington have gone to the STCC is that they are being PAID to drive! As I'm sure Rydell is.

I don't think one should judge the quality of the championship based on how close the competition is. If so, the old León Eurocup would be at least on par with the best Touring Car Championships!! Certainly a dream championship would be with Giovanardi, Priaulx, Muller, Tarquini, Huff, Thompson, Turkington and Rydell rather than Onslow-Cole, Andy Jordan, Paul 'O Neill, Franz Engstler and Kristian Poulsen. They're all good drivers, but I would like to see the champions. Would you have more fun watching Barcelona-Real Madrid or Sampdoria-Chievo Verona? The best drivers make the championahip better.
Sure enough they're paid, but money is where manufacturers' interest is. And of course manufacturers want the best possible championship.
With all due respect to DTM drivers, I really think that Scheider would have to fight hard to be on par with Giovanardi or Priaulx. Same way as Priaulx will have to work to perform at his best in the DTM.
British tracks are great, but I would love to finally see a Super 2000 championship in Italy. We have Monza, Imola, Mugello, Vallelunga, Misano... All great tracks. But I do love Oulton Park, Brands Hatch and Silverstone, and I'm sure Knockhill would be fun to drive on!!!

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Anyway, if I were managing the BTCC, I'd wonder why two super British drivers like Thommo and Turkington elected to go to Scandinavia rather than staying in the UK. Perhaps manfacturers are still an important part of motor racing?

In Thompson's case, he has nothing to prove by racing in the BTCC: he's already won it twice, and people would just expect him to win again. If he didn't then what would that do to his career?

The same is true to a lesser extent of Turkington.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Certainly a dream championship would be with Giovanardi, Priaulx, Muller, Tarquini, Huff, Thompson, Turkington and Rydell rather than Onslow-Cole, Andy Jordan, Paul 'O Neill, Franz Engstler and Kristian Poulsen. They're all good drivers, but I would like to see the champions. Would you have more fun watching Barcelona-Real Madrid or Sampdoria-Chievo Verona? The best drivers make the championahip better.

It's interesting you list Tom Onslow-Cole, he could even have been BTCC champion last year if it wasn't for, er, well, can you confirm you understood this message?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

It's interesting you list Tom Onslow-Cole, he could even have been BTCC champion last year if it wasn't for, er, well, can you confirm you understood this message?

But it is a debatable point as to whether Onslow-Cole is of the same class as, say, Giovanardi, Priaulx or Muller.

[gregc]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

It's interesting you list Tom Onslow-Cole, he could even have been BTCC champion last year if it wasn't for, er, well, can you confirm you understood this message?

I was about to post something similar - and I would have O'Neill and Jackson (2nd in the '08 championship, remember) as potential champions too, given the right car.

Assuming that those who have yet to announce will be on the grid, then while we may not have many former champions in the BTCC, there will be a fair few that would start with a good shot at the title.

Regarding Rydell's comments, ignoring the obvious "he would say that though, wouldn't he" angle - he's probably not far off the mark. The STCC entry list does look very strong this year, although looking at the news/rumours thread the other side of that strength is that the numbers look a little thin so far, whereas we could be looking at a full grid in the UK if everyone who has announced makes it, and the couple more that I'm expecting appear. And yes, quality trumps quantity, but from a spectators point of view I'd much rather watch 26 or 28 cars racing than 16...

My only other comment would be, is there any way that I can watch the STCC from here (without a satellite dish!)?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by kipper

But it is a debatable point as to whether Onslow-Cole is of the same class as, say, Giovanardi, Priaulx or Muller.

The OC is 23 (I.E. younger than the reigning F3 Euroseries champion), has only been in the BTCC since 2007, came within five points of Matt Neal in his sophomore season, and came very close to the title last year in what was his third full season, beating the team's favoured son (literally) in the championship. Is he in the same class as Gio, Priaulx or Muller? Obviously not on "lifetime achievement". On ability? Not entirely sure, but he is certainly an extremely good driver, and can only improve with age. Will he get the same "lifetime achievement" over his career? Who knows. He'd certainly make a good fist of a WTCC campaign in my opinion.

DTM is a separate issue, as it's full of the more recent "unlucky" drivers that fell of the single seater ladder and may be there as a stop-gap. It is clearly a different style of racing with less aggression, longer races and two pitstop races.

Owy never had the machinery to prove himself at the right time of his career, and he was forced to take a total year out, and since that has never had the achinery. He isn't on the level of those deities of tintops that you have mentioned, but he is better than people give him credit for.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The OC is 23 (I.E. younger than the reigning F3 Euroseries champion), has only been in the BTCC since 2007, came within five points of Matt Neal in his sophomore season, and came very close to the title last year in what was his third full season, beating the team's favoured son (literally) in the championship. Is he in the same class as Gio, Priaulx or Muller? Obviously not on "lifetime achievement". On ability? Not entirely sure, but he is certainly an extremely good driver, and can only improve with age. Will he get the same "lifetime achievement" over his career? Who knows. He'd certainly make a good fist of a WTCC campaign in my opinion.

And that was my point. I was listing very good drivers (I rate O'Neill even better than TOC, actually), I like to see them but Giovanardi, Thommo, Rydell and so on are on a different level, at least at the moment.
As for the quantity, once you have the top 8 cars fighting against each other, do you really care about who's behind them? In the WTCC we've been used to a huge gap between independents and works entries, and it was certainly interesting to see them fight (remember I used to work in an Independent team!).
But now, can you name (without looking it up) all the WTCC Independent Champions? Most people are certainly more interested in the battle at the front.

I don't think it's a matter of career for Jimmy, when it came down to doing a few races in the BTCC for Team Dynamics in 2009 he didn't say 'no' just because he'd already won it. Priaulx stayed in the WTCC for three seasons after winning it three times, did it make him a less popular driver or did it cheapen his wins? I don't think so. Same goes for Colin.

As for the DTM that's right, another car, another story. That's why I wouldn't take them into account, as they'd have to prove themselves again as if they were starting from scratch. Having said that, there are some huge talents in the DTM who would quickly adapt to proper Touring Cars IMO.

[FIRE]

Why Thompson and Turkington move to STCC? Because they don't need to bring money to the team.

[Craner Curves]

Which is surely a target of every professional racing driver.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Which is surely a target of every professional racing driver.

Exactly! The question is: why is the money in the STCC (a Swedish and Danish national championship) and not in the WTCC?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

All in all we should be happy because we have three great series. They have the following strengths IMO:

STCC - Highest quality drivers (and I still would have loved to see Giovanardi and Dahlgren again in the new Scandinavian championship!)

WTCC - Very high quality driver (but in a smaller amount compared to the STCC) and one of the largest full-time grids in the last few years (certainly more than one would have expected)

BTCC - Interesting combination of different cars and still very good drivers.

While the WTCC grid might not see more drivers coming, I would like to note that the STCC and the BTCC both start later in the year, so surprises might still be there to come.

Touring Fan is right about Rydell making those remarks just because he's in the series, but the Swede still made a good point: he will have to face some of the best drivers out there and they have fantastic STCC specialists both in Sweden and in Denmark (Goransson, Nilsson and Magnussen, just to mention a few of them).

Anyway, if I were managing the BTCC, I'd wonder why two super British drivers like Thommo and Turkington elected to go to Scandinavia rather than staying in the UK. Perhaps manfacturers are still an important part of motor racing?

+1

I think we should be happy Touring Car racing hasn't fallen into oblivion.

There will always be national series like BTCC and STCC, but only recently has their been a WTCC. Basically only two heavy hitters for a series that depends on manufacturer support its still a solid series because of the diversity in the cockpit.

Turkington couldn't get a ride and that's a complete shame given the manufacturer support in the BTCC.

Thompson will be in both WTCC and STCC he's just spreading himself around, he can't get a Sports Car deal which is also a shame.

[helterskelter]

I think the Wtcc has proved wrong all of those who said it was too manufacturer-dependant. Eventhough the only real works effort is the Chevrolet programme (Volvo are just putting their toe in the water, they'll be fully functional only in 2012), the series will still have around 20 entries (taking out of account any last minute deals).
With Coronel & Michelisz in a BMW, Tarquini in the SEAT and Muller and Huffy in the Chevy the WTCC looks still very interesting. It remains to be seen whether it's more interesting than the STCC or not!