USCC Sebring and Daytona Test Nov.2013

[PointDSM]

Weight plus new tires (setup issues).

[pablocomics]

....or someone is trying to hide the ral car potential in order to have some advantage in the future. (anyone says Porsche 997 GTE style?)

[Purist]

I'm sure IMSA has been looking at the telemetry. If you even tried to do something overt enough to cost you 4 seconds, they're going to know, and they won't take too kindly to that sort of behavior if they catch it.

They're certain to be taking an extra, hard look at the data in the wake of those two airborne incidents anyway.

[Maelochs]

One thing to remember is that ESM (the only P2 on track) was having problems with its drive-by-wire throttle system and might not have been accelerating out of the corners.

I can't tell from those charts what the maximum cornering speed or load was, just max speed in or through the section. I'd assume the DP was moving a lot faster coming into the Bus Stop and accelerated better leaving it, and that both cars had to slow dramatically for the last two corners in the West Horseshoe so aero effect would have been minimized, while the DP would have accelerated more strongly on the short chute.

Because the sample size is so small and the P2 car was not working to potential, there is really no conclusion which can be drawn, IMO.

[Christian Mogami]

After they fixed the throttle problem the drivers for the ESM ARX-03b said they're was no GO out of the corners and on the oval!

That happens when your only barely making a little over 450Hp with a car that is at 960kg and the ARX-03B was designed for downforce over aero top speed even in Le Mans spec.

Also because its in Le Mans Spec(20% less downforce) its a ***** in the tight corners in the infield,made even worse with the rock hard 'tall'(hitting the bodywork bad!!!) Continental tires!

[TF110]

These guys seem like they didn't think things through in equalising the cars. Or they did and hoped for this outcome. I can't believe they'd intentionally slow lmp2 that much. So it probably was a quick think "ballast and new tires should work". In reality its a lot more to it than that with the weight affecting ballance, suspension settings, gearing etc. ADDED to the new tire confusion. Its like a double whammy.

[MitchZ06]

Why not just take power away from the DPs? Not sure why they increased it in the first place....

[Koenigsegg]

Aren't the PC cars on a different compound than DP/P2, I thought I read somewhere that PC tires are a bit harder than DP/P2 tires.

[Maelochs]

The DPs were given more power to push the new high-downforce bodywork. Without it, the DPs might have been even slower than they were, farther behind PC and closer to GTLM.

I am sure P2 will get larger restrictors and maybe less weight, and hopefully teams will have enough time to figure out gearing and suspension settings in time for Daytona—and then do the whole thing all over again to get ready for Sebring.

Hopefully in a few years we will all be able to look back and laugh about how badly TUSC screwed up its first season, and how much better things are now. Great stories to tell around the campfire after the day’s racing.

“Remember when the ‘tested’ DPs and P2s and only one P2 team showed up, and it didn’t even run right?”

“Yeah, and remember they didn’t even have final regs even close to in place by the time they closed the entry period?”

“Ha, and ‘One chance to get this right’ became the new “If you knew what I knew’!”

“Yeah, unbelievable that bunch kept the series alive long enough for it to get here and be this good.”

(“Alternative ending: “Yeah, at least it died in its third year so this new, better series could take over.”)

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by TF110

These guys seem like they didn't think things through in equalising the cars. Or they did and hoped for this outcome. I can't believe they'd intentionally slow lmp2 that much. So it probably was a quick think "ballast and new tires should work". In reality its a lot more to it than that with the weight affecting ballance, suspension settings, gearing etc. ADDED to the new tire confusion. Its like a double whammy.

Recall back when the "merger" was announced the DPs were to be the premier class with P2s allowed. Equality was not included.

In this case also consider the classic logic flaw reasoning from the specific to the general - one relatively inexperienced P2 team sets the standard for all the rest in one day of running at a strange to them track on strange to them tires with new engine control and new weight.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

Aren't the PC cars on a different compound than DP/P2, I thought I read somewhere that PC tires are a bit harder than DP/P2 tires.

PC cars run the same tires as DP/P2.

-mike

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

Aren't the PC cars on a different compound than DP/P2, I thought I read somewhere that PC tires are a bit harder than DP/P2 tires.

You are half right. When the PC's were on Michelins they were a much harder compound that the Michelins in other classes.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The DPs were given more power to push the new high-downforce bodywork. Without it, the DPs might have been even slower than they were, farther behind PC and closer to GTLM.

I am sure P2 will get larger restrictors and maybe less weight, and hopefully teams will have enough time to figure out gearing and suspension settings in time for Daytona—and then do the whole thing all over again to get ready for Sebring.

Hopefully in a few years we will all be able to look back and laugh about how badly TUSC screwed up its first season, and how much better things are now. Great stories to tell around the campfire after the day’s racing.

“Remember when the ‘tested’ DPs and P2s and only one P2 team showed up, and it didn’t even run right?”

“Yeah, and remember they didn’t even have final regs even close to in place by the time they closed the entry period?”

“Ha, and ‘One chance to get this right’ became the new “If you knew what I knew’!”

“Yeah, unbelievable that bunch kept the series alive long enough for it to get here and be this good.”

(“Alternative ending: “Yeah, at least it died in its third year so this new, better series could take over.”)

I feel the same way about my Florida Gators.

Just wait 'til next year, or the next year, or maybe the next year.

Until then, my brothers and I will be sitting around the campfire in NASCAR turn three at Daytona (already ordered our campsite and tickets) and in our regular motorhome spot along the turn one fence at Sebring, talking about how much better the racing is now that the two series are merged.

We won't need to wait three years.

Hopefully, we'll also have an alternate National Champion (Florida State) to celebrate as well. That would be fine by me.

Andy Flinn
UF '91
FSU '94

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

I feel the same way about my Florida Gators.

Just wait 'til next year, or the next year, or maybe the next year.

Andy Flinn
UF '91
FSU '94

Funny, I was just thinking how positive my outlook has been recently.

JP Hamilton
Georgia Southern '04

[CyberMotor]

Since you two have invoked the names of the Univ. of Florida and Ga. Southern, here's a video of both showing something that is probably symbolic of why sports car racing has also had such a difficult time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05h49R4QX9U

AC, you might need to keep dreaming.

[canamman]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Funny, I was just thinking how positive my outlook has been recently.

JP Hamilton
Georgia Southern '04

Ah, a fellow Eagle, '82. I was there when the first bricks were laid
by Erk Russell. 2 daughters down there now. Those highlites
will forever stay on my DVR.

[Maelochs]

"...my brothers and I will be ... talking about how much better the racing is now that the two series are merged."

I hope so, I really do, because AI also plan to be at both events. But I am a realist, not a PR person. Sebring has been amazing for the past several years, and Daytona has been ... good enough. If the P-cars aren't balanced out propoerly, the only amazing thing about either race will be that anyone thought the same management teams would get it right once combined.

if the P-class is balanced right, the racing should be as good as past years at Sebring and better at Daytona ... but I don't need to state with absolute (and thus imaginary) certainty something no one can possibly know in advance.

Unless your brothers are as realistic as yourself, and will say things are better than last year every year, no matter what happened.

Say, did you and your brothers attend Sebring the year it was cancelled, and sit around saying how much better the racing was that year, too?

Me, I am honest enough to admit I am hoping, not knowing, that the series will get everything right and put on a good show.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

"...my brothers and I will be ... talking about how much better the racing is now that the two series are merged."

I hope so, I really do, because AI also plan to be at both events. But I am a realist, not a PR person. Sebring has been amazing for the past several years, and Daytona has been ... good enough. If the P-cars aren't balanced out propoerly, the only amazing thing about either race will be that anyone thought the same management teams would get it right once combined.

if the P-class is balanced right, the racing should be as good as past years at Sebring and better at Daytona ... but I don't need to state with absolute (and thus imaginary) certainty something no one can possibly know in advance.

Unless your brothers are as realistic as yourself, and will say things are better than last year every year, no matter what happened.

Say, did you and your brothers attend Sebring the year it was cancelled, and sit around saying how much better the racing was that year, too?

Me, I am honest enough to admit I am hoping, not knowing, that the series will get everything right and put on a good show.

After all this, don't forget there's still a diesel P2 Speedsource-Mazda waiting to be balanced. ;-)

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by canamman

Ah, a fellow Eagle, '82. I was there when the first bricks were laid
by Erk Russell. 2 daughters down there now. Those highlites
will forever stay on my DVR.

Ha, I knew I liked you! Small world. fieldodreams is class of '03.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

"...my brothers and I will be ... talking about how much better the racing is now that the two series are merged."

Say, did you and your brothers attend Sebring the year it was cancelled, and sit around saying how much better the racing was that year, too?

Sebring - and Daytona - were both cancelled in 1974 due to a NATIONWIDE FUEL SHORTAGE. So I'm not sure what any racing series could have done to prevent that.

That was also two years after the FIA abandoned Sebring (sound familiar?) and just one year after John Bishop's fledgling sanction (IMSA), with encouragement and financial backing from Bill France, Sr., and promotional help from John Greenwood and Reggie Smith, took control of the event. There were no prototypes in 1973; mostly Porsches, Corvettes, Camaros and Mustangs. Peter Gregg and Hurley Haywood won overall for Brumos Racing.

My brothers and I didn't start attending Sebring until 1978. No European prototypes at Sebring that year, either. However, 1978 was the year Charles Mendez took over promotion of the event and finally convinced the Sebring Airport Authority not to shut down the 12-hour for good. For years in the '70s, the SAA made that same threat every year.

There's a reason John Bishop, John Greenwood and Charles Mendez are all in the Sebring Hall of Fame.

So if I had been sitting around a campfire with my brothers at Sebring in 1974 (I would have been five years old), YES I would definitely have said that the 12-hour was in better shape in '74 under IMSA (even with no race that year) than in '72 after the FIA abandoned Sebring.

I've been going to Sebring every year since '78. And basically every year I am thankful Sebring wasn't shut down way back in the '70s.

What you call hope sounds like pessimism to me. I prefer to be an optimist. Studies of the personality traits of successful people indicate that most of them are optimists, too.

Andy Flinn

[Purist]

Somehow, I think it was a bit more complicated than the FIA just "abandoning" Sebring. They did come back in 1981. Daytona stayed on through 1981, save for a lapse in 1976. Watkins Glen was there that whole time. Also, in 1981, they had SIX rounds in the US: Daytona 24 & 6-hour, Sebring 12-hour, Riverside 6-hour, Watkins Glen 6-hour, and Road America 500-mile. They had SEVEN rounds in North America that year, with Mosport. It seems though that they probably over-extended that season with 15 rounds, since they went down to eight for 1982.

As for the most recent episode. Well, how do you think 64 cars went at Sebring last year? How would you like to have to organize all nine class podiums for the WEC and ALMS? How would you like to be in the middle of two race directors who call things quite differently? How would you balance the differing B'soP between the two series? I can only imagine the mess/headache it all caused, and it probably wasn't practical to repeat that again. So, it would have to be one series or the other running it going forward to eliminate those issues. It's just that simple. I don't want to know how much you'd be *****ing now if the FIA had gotten Sebring for their series.

Finally, I just want to see the hottest machinery out there on-track that it is possible to bring forth. I'm not a partisan for either the domestics or the foreigners. Let's see who brings the best stuff. If the Big Three want to get my attention, make a car that gets my juices going. Make something with a luscious sound. Make something that is comparable in sex appeal to the Italians, the British, and yes, even the Germans sometimes produce a real masterpiece.

BTW, didn't the Europeans come over with Porsche 935s and such in the late '70s and early '80s? It may not have been Group 6, but Group 5/GTX was no less extreme, and probably even better developed, by that point, especially after Alfa Romeo finished with the Tipo 33 and the main thrust of the 936 program was over.

[Maelochs]

“So if I had been sitting around a campfire with my brothers at Sebring in 1974 (I would have been five years old), YES I would definitely have said that the 12-hour was in better shape in '74 under IMSA (even with no race that year) than in '72 after the FIA abandoned Sebring.”

“Yeah, buddy, this race which isn’t happening is a lot better than last year’s, where cars actually raced.”

Maybe try dictionary.com to compare “optimistic” and “delusional.”

[freeballin]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

“So if I had been sitting around a campfire with my brothers at Sebring in 1974 (I would have been five years old), YES I would definitely have said that the 12-hour was in better shape in '74 under IMSA (even with no race that year) than in '72 after the FIA abandoned Sebring.”

“Yeah, buddy, this race which isn’t happening is a lot better than last year’s, where cars actually raced.”

Maybe try dictionary.com to compare “optimistic” and “delusional.”

Don't start with definitions. I'm still waiting for "diversity" to be understood.

[Adam43]

This is a new extreme of pedantic, tedious and bickering postings. Suggestions to look up words in dictionaries, worthless extreme examples of races that didn't happen, etc... The majority of users aren't interested. As a lot of them keep telling us. They would like interesting intelligent discussion. It is, again, derailing a thread and stopping people from discussing the actual topic. If they are still around to try.

Repeatedly it is requested that his kind of posting does not happen. It isn't the why ten-tenths exists. I guess it is time for us to go through another round of warns.

[Bob Riebe]

Next year, is for all practical purposes a, let's see how this turns out, year.

In your opinion, how do you think the rules for 2015 or 2016 will differ, it they do?