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Old 28 Mar 2006, 19:59 (Ref:1563670)   #1
Un0Turb0-WP
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Car Wiring advice

Im busy making some alterations to my cars wiring loom.
Basically im still using the original loom but I've changed the main junction box where the fuses were mounted to and where all the wires connected to each other as the original box has seen better days and the connector pins that were used have also seen better days as they dont seem to want to make a good connection 90% of the time.

I've replaced it with new flush mount blade fuse holders but now Im trying to work out whats the best way of splitting off the 12v ignition source to the various fuses and accessory's from the main wire.

What would you guys reccomend I do? I would like it to be as neat as possible without going over the top with expensive mil spec connectors etc.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 28 Mar 2006, 20:09 (Ref:1563686)   #2
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when i done this part of my loom i soldered a dozen or so smaller wies into a larger wire and put a couple bits of heat shrink over it
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Old 28 Mar 2006, 20:23 (Ref:1563695)   #3
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This was one of my options.. Is it possible the solder joints could break from vibrations or anything over time?
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Old 28 Mar 2006, 21:44 (Ref:1563756)   #4
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i wouldnt worry about that loads of flux and plenty heat
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Old 29 Mar 2006, 07:34 (Ref:1564027)   #5
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I split it off by using 'eyelets' on the cables, held together by a bolt and wrapped liberally in insulation tape.

And yes, if a soldered joint is in an area of high vibration then it WILL break. In these sorts of areas it is also worse considering getting more flexible wire.
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Old 29 Mar 2006, 10:00 (Ref:1564043)   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis Bassom
And yes, if a soldered joint is in an area of high vibration then it WILL break.
Which is why you don't see soldered electrical cable connections in either the Marine or Aircraft industry
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Old 29 Mar 2006, 11:42 (Ref:1564121)   #7
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see the current issue of Racecar (V16N4 = April) I've written a piece on just this, the advice is use proper motorsport connectors - they may set you back a bit more but its well worth it. Vibration and resonance can not only destroy soldered joints but also it will damage cheap (plastic) connectors.
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Old 29 Mar 2006, 17:19 (Ref:1564347)   #8
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Originally Posted by ss_collins
see the current issue of Racecar (V16N4 = April) I've written a piece on just this, the advice is use proper motorsport connectors - they may set you back a bit more but its well worth it. Vibration and resonance can not only destroy soldered joints but also it will damage cheap (plastic) connectors.
We dont recieve Racecar here, any other way I could get hold of that info pls.
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Old 29 Mar 2006, 18:29 (Ref:1564386)   #9
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Do you guys have any links for motorsport connectors etc?
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Old 29 Mar 2006, 19:39 (Ref:1564429)   #10
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There is a nice article on the subject here http://www.classictouringcars.com/pa...Aug%202005.pdf Page 14 Its a back issue of the CTRCC Flyer magazine.
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Old 29 Mar 2006, 21:47 (Ref:1564529)   #11
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Boats and aircraft ,soldered joints are a no-no because of corrosion . Salt water and dissimilar metals love it , Personaly if you clip up cables and fasten to the body etc I dont see why you should have any excessive vibration or fatigue in soldered joints I know it makes the wire stiffer where the solder has run but why should it vibrate if it's clamped up ?
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Old 30 Mar 2006, 06:59 (Ref:1564890)   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogf3
Boats and aircraft ,soldered joints are a no-no because of corrosion . Salt water and dissimilar metals love it , Personaly if you clip up cables and fasten to the body etc I dont see why you should have any excessive vibration or fatigue in soldered joints I know it makes the wire stiffer where the solder has run but why should it vibrate if it's clamped up ?
My principle problem area was alternator wires, they kept breaking at the connector.

I have also had problems with the bulkhead mounted ignition balast resistors.

Both of these were solderd and the balast resistors cables were cable tied in place.

Since crimping and, on the alternator, using flexible wiring, I haven't had a problem.
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Old 30 Mar 2006, 07:46 (Ref:1564914)   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis Bassom
My principle problem area was alternator wires, they kept breaking at the connector.

I have also had problems with the bulkhead mounted ignition balast resistors.

Both of these were solderd and the balast resistors cables were cable tied in place.

Since crimping and, on the alternator, using flexible wiring, I haven't had a problem.
They cant break if you secure loom to the casing and then a short supported loop on to the terminal . No expensive connectors . its only when you have a foot of heavy cable going to the vibrating component that you will get problems with it snapping .Support the cable and use what ever connection you like .Personaly I solder when i think that some pillock usualy me,is going to lean on the wire doing somthing else like changing hoses etc.or when I will remove the component and leave it dangling on the wire . Every one does it in the heat of the moment crimped wires can pull out under those conditions . How did ballast resistor wires snap?What's vibrating or are they melting ?
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Old 30 Mar 2006, 07:53 (Ref:1564923)   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogf3
How did ballast resistor wires snap?What's vibrating or are they melting ?
Vibration.
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Old 30 Mar 2006, 16:05 (Ref:1565278)   #15
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Originally Posted by Un0Turb0-WP
Do you guys have any links for motorsport connectors etc?
Try here under Autosport... HTH
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Old 30 Mar 2006, 16:39 (Ref:1565301)   #16
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The harmonics/vibration inside a cheap connector or soldered joint could see the pin coating (often gold) come apart and cause it to fail - if it fails - you fail.

Also proper connectors are lighter
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Old 30 Mar 2006, 17:03 (Ref:1565317)   #17
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used these connectors at work you can buy them from any cat or liebherr dealer cost plenty the crimp tool alone was about 300 quid and you still get problems with water ingress
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Old 30 Mar 2006, 17:59 (Ref:1565348)   #18
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Supplier of electrical parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Un0Turb0-WP
Do you guys have any links for motorsport connectors etc?
Try Neil at http://www.polevolt.co.uk/
He's got all the parts you probably need, and is very knowledgable about how it all works too.
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Old 30 Mar 2006, 21:26 (Ref:1565518)   #19
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As with most things motorsport, Get the best you can, record everything and label everything.
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Old 31 Mar 2006, 00:18 (Ref:1565635)   #20
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Not to be controversial, but....

I did and electronics apprenticeship with the MOD. I was taught in week one of my four years that an electrical joint should be sound, i.e. mechanically self supporting, before being soldered - the solder being simply for better electrical continuity and lower resistance.

The argument against soldered joints it completely invalid (if you follow this principal) because your car wouldn't run without solder. Why? well:

1) your ecu is FULL of soldered joints
2) if you don't run an ecu but run electronic ignition, IT will be full of soldered joints
3) your alternator has MANY soldered joints
4) if you run a copper rad, it is soldered
5) your electronic dash or other electrical instruments, laptimers - even your transponder - have many soldered joints in them.

You can be sure that there is no spacecraft or satelite that we have sent from this planet that doesn't depend and rely on soldered electrical joints. And I am told nothing vibrates like a Saturn 5! (Available from your local Anne Summers, should your missus ask!)

Solder does make the wire close to the joint more susceptible to fatigue, as tin is not as malleable as copper. However, if you ensure that the wiring/loom is correctly supported some distance from the connector, that connectors are not rigidly connected to the chassis, and that no wiring to connectors is ' banjo string' tight', then most of the vibrations from the chassis will never reach the connectors and the joints are very unlikely to fail because of being soldered.

When connecting to switches and other electrical items that are attached to dash panels or other parts of the car that will directly transmit chassis vibrations, soldered joints are best avoided. But screw terminals on switches can vibrate loose too, so treat them with the same caution. Faston (spade)connectors have served the automobile industry very well for several decades and, if you check electrical connections and wiring when you do a spanner check (which you should), and change any items that you think are suspect when you prep the car for a race, I think it unlikely that you will not finish a race because of a soldered joint or a multiway Faston connector has failed. Fastons connectors are available in different grades - but even buying the best is not expensive.

Finally, it should be remembered that wiring on aircraft and ships, whether commercial or military, does not get inspected before every flight or every sailing. This is for cost reasons, because it would be impossibly expensive to do. It would take several man-weeks to inspect the wiring on even the smallest plane and several man months on a ship. Knowing some civillian aircaft maintenance engineers, most parts on an aircraft don't get looked at until a failure is reported (enjoy your holiday!). As 'fit and forget' should never be a phrase in your preparation handbook, electrical failure of the wiring loom and connectors need never be a problem.

If you are doing 24 hour races, or your race headquarters cost more than the GDP of Brazil, or you just one the lottery and can't think what to spend it all on, then by all means spend your money on MIL spec wiring looms and connectors. Otherwise, I suggest you spend a sensible amount on quality wiring and spend the rest on entry fees, tyres, and a beer for you and your crew after the race. (And a Saturn 5 for the missus)
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Old 31 Mar 2006, 05:27 (Ref:1565761)   #21
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Old 31 Mar 2006, 06:50 (Ref:1565812)   #22
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I worked for GEC Avionics repair department.

There is a vast difference between a soldered joint between a component on a PCB and a soldered joint on a wire.

The ones on the wires usually fail!

I have not finished several races because soldered joints have failed.

Military aircraft used crimped connectors (not cheapo Halfords type ones though) for everything that isn't PCB mounted.
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Old 31 Mar 2006, 15:45 (Ref:1566190)   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis Bassom
Vibration.
Stop It!!!!! Move it!!!!! The vibration that is Was that the wires or terminals cracking off
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Old 31 Mar 2006, 15:57 (Ref:1566199)   #24
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Phoenix raises some great points (by the way old chap what did you think to my bit on the subject?)- though the MIL aero connectors are not as expensive as you think - a decent spec loom can be put together for £1k - £2k maybe less using them. May sound a lot but it will make you car lighter and it will make your car more reliable and it will make the electrics easier to service.

contact BERU F1 Systems
http://www.f1systems.com/

or Servo Ltd.
http://www.servoconnectors.co.uk/

these two firms are the market leaders
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Old 31 Mar 2006, 16:03 (Ref:1566204)   #25
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Hi Pheonix.
I agree with you . My son Is an aircraft engineer and you should here the stories he tells. it really would shock most people .Cargo door fell off an aircraft the other day on take off I had better not say anything else about that . I would like to know where the harmonic vibrtions are coming from ,to fracture terminals as stated by SS collins if the cables are clipped up like you and I said suggested how can the terminal crack ?Aircraft as you know are full of soldered and crimped joints as applicable to the application Boats are mostly crimped unless well sealed ,as in a printed circuit board when it has that "Stuff" pored in While we are on the subject "Black Wire corrosion" ,any Ideas ????? for prevention I think spending £1000 on a loom for the guy running his Formula Ford is bit over the top Dont you think ?
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