ALMS 2012 Discussion

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Wrong, the Frances got into sportscar racing first with the USRRC in 1998 when they threw IMSA, which was then under Andy Evans' reign of error, out of Daytona... back then that was probably a good move.

France funded John Bishop back in 1971 to start IMSA. DIS has had sports car races since it opened, including everything from SCCA regionals to the ARRC along with the International races that started with the Continental and became the 24 Hours, which was FIA, encompassed SCCA classes (TransAm) and then went on the include the growing IMSA group, and then became IMSA with International invitees. IMSA veered from the very early days to allow cars outside the FIA/SCCA rules, developed the AAGT class to compete against the factory built cars coming mostly from Porsche. Those were overwhelmed by the 935's when they came in, and that led to adopting the GTP rules sets (which started at LeMans with the Inalteras) but with a focus on including American V-8's. Also, the tube framed GT's, which were the norm.

[Speed-King]

Right, I missphrased that a bit... what I meant to say is that 1998 was the first time when the Frances went into sportscar racing as outright series owners...

[The Badger]

I remember when Daytona slammed to door on Porsche with the XJR/TWR/Mazda/Porsche WEC Andretti enrty , after testing was done that year at the track ..... that was crap . Nobody else changes rules that fast .

[Speed-King]

Not sure if that was Daytona or Evans - sounds a lot like Evans actually...

[Danske]

Now if you look at the ALMS as a series inspired by late 90s GT1, then it's a miracle it's lasted as long as it has.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Wrong, the Frances got into sportscar racing first with the USRRC in 1998 when they threw IMSA, which was then under Andy Evans' reign of error, out of Daytona... back then that was probably a good move.

Don Panoz was originally on the USRRC-board and only established ALMS when he left USRRC being unhappy with the way the Panoz GT1-cars were treated vs the prototypes.

Grand Am is just a continuation of USRRC without the co-sanctioning of SCCA.

So it is in this case actually Panoz who established his series against existing competition...

I think his displeasure with the way the USRRC was willy-nilly with BoP was only part of the problem. Dr. Don was also enamored with Le Mans and dreamed of "bringing Le Mans" to America. While "ballastgate" at Daytona 1998 was likely strike one, keep in mind the Panoz Esperantes made appearances at other USRRC events that year.

I think Dr. Don likely wanted USRRC to sanction his Petit Le Mans but the founding principals of the USRRC seemed to clash with the idea of bringing French rules to an American circuit. Thus Professional Sports Car became a solid option for the Don as Evans had already stated one of his goals was to bring the American rules more in line with FIA GT rules. (Who knows if Andy was taking steps to do this or not, we all naturally assume it was more hot air).

When Panoz had a friendly sanctioning body stateside and the ear of the ACO who were trying to benefit from what was then the white-hot flame of GT1 racing, he saw the opportunity for an American Le Mans Series; and before the 10 Hours at Petit had ended (and likely well before they'd started) plans were in the offing to launch a championship whose rules were more sensible and allowed teams to easily race in North America and Europe, crucially in Don's mind, at Le Mans.

Chris

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

When Panoz had a friendly sanctioning body stateside and the ear of the ACO who were trying to benefit from what was then the white-hot flame of GT1 racing, he saw the opportunity for an American Le Mans Series; and before the 10 Hours at Petit had ended (and likely well before they'd started) plans were in the offing to launch a championship whose rules were more sensible and allowed teams to easily race in North America and Europe, crucially in Don's mind, at Le Mans.

Chris

By '98 GT1 was effectively dead, it was a case of waiting for the remaining programs to be wound up with many having a last run at Le Mans '99.

With Audi and BMW going the LMP route there was an attempt to relaunch FIA GT1 as a prototype series but there wasn't enough support. The result was Europe being left with FIA GT2 and the FIA SCC for old style 333SP's and Riley's with most of the top Le Mans runners going to the ALMS.

[Jonerz]

Yes, GT1 was in effect dead as it had no future. But the GT1 cars were the exciting part of the grid at Le Mans, and while LMP racing was the future, the future was uncertain. The ACO was trying to sell the factories on LMP racing. The possible American Le Mans Series was certainly a weapon. Between Porsche, Mercedes, and Toyota the ACO had three manufacturers (GT1 manufacturers, even though Toyota was a Le Mans exclusive and by 1999 it was commonly accepted their car was simply a prototype, NOT a GT car) they were trying to take from Ratel's GT1 and run in LMP alongside BMW and Audi. However, I think at the time of the launching of the BMW program, they chose the roadster route simply to try and take advantage of theoretical performance advantages of an open top car as compared to the closed top GT1s. While the Audi program debuted with both open and closed cars as a practical exam to see which would be the more competitive race car. Of those two programs, Audi's is the only I would concede as having a definite future in sports car racing from 2000 and beyond - Audi was trying to redefine its brand. (Using Le Mans, and the ACO was using that as another tool to sell their product to manufacturers.)

Bottom line was this, BMW was out of ACO rules racing to go to F1, and only through the US dealer network's funding did we see an extra year of factory competition in the ALMS (prototypes). The ACO (and Don Panoz) thought that perhaps a series, with exposure in a crucial market like North America may persuade some of the GT1 marques to stay in the game and spend their money on Le Mans.

The ALMS therefore, was an opportunistic venture that had perfect timing in the racing world and while the GT1 manufacturers didn't stay on with "LM GTP" nor LMP cars, the last 13 years certainly make me think the gamble paid off. Audi had a place to race, great battles were fought between BMW and Audi, Panoz and Audi, and interspersed in the early years brands were reborn at Le Mans including MG, Bentley and Cadillac. Certainly the Viper vs. Covette battles were incredible, Corvette vs. Ferrari battles and Corvette vs. Aston battles were the same and the ACO picked up more momentum when Ferrari committed to GT2 birthing what is now the greatest class in world motorsport (as defined by factory interest in technologies, marketing, and simply factory vs. factory racing), and the heyday of ALMS prototype racing was also a testament to the gamble.

So yes GT1 was dying, but in 1998 it was still where the manufacturers were, yes LMP was the future but that wasn't clear in 1998. The ALMS was a gamble that was taken by the ACO and Panoz and it paid off. Fortunately for sports car fans, the Don had access to a sanctioning body! (Now hopefully the ACO remember the ALMS not just as a tool, but as an equal partner that helped saved ACO racing.)

Chris

[Félix]

ALMS 1999 had a very deep prototype field made out of 333SPs and R&Ss. The battle just behind the top cars was a very good one with 20+ cars in the class at most races. For 2000, most teams got tired of fighting for 8th place and they either went to Grand-Am, or bought new equipment (Lola and Reynard) that just couldn't compete with the new Audi.

GT1s never made it to the ALMS. Panoz ran the GTR-1 twice, Porsche was supposed to give Champion a 911 GT1-98 but the car was never raced after it flipped. There was almost an official announcement for Mercedes to bring the CLR to America after LM... but we know how that ended. Apart from that, the Cadillac effort that appeared in 2000 was barely fast enough to competed with outdated WSCs and the Nissan R391 program that was supposed to continue in 2000 (with customer engines) was cancelled because the company struggled. What could have been...

[Deleted]

Champion's 911 GT1 run a full season in ALMS back in '99, did you forget? Too bad prototypes were it's only opponents

[Speed-King]

That was the regular 996 GT1, though... not the 1998 Evolution version...

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Champion's 911 GT1 run a full season in ALMS back in '99, did you forget? Too bad prototypes were it's only opponents

The Sintura was at Laguna Seca that year.

[NaBUru38]

Dodge running a Le Mans GTE = worldwide project / advertising
Dodge running a Grand-Am Rolex GT = American project / advertising

The new Viper isn's just for the United States, but for the whole world, not forgetting all those millionaire Chinese and Middle Easterns. That's why the Le Mans project makes sense.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Dodge running a Le Mans GTE = worldwide project / advertising
Dodge running a Grand-Am Rolex GT = American project / advertising

The new Viper isn's just for the United States, but for the whole world, not forgetting all those millionaire Chinese and Middle Easterns. That's why the Le Mans project makes sense.

It's dependent on how much money is being spent and who is spending it. Also crucial is where Dodge believes they are going to sell the most Vipers and where they want the Dodge brand to be built up.

Chris

[TerribleWone]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Dodge running a Le Mans GTE = worldwide project / advertising
Dodge running a Grand-Am Rolex GT = American project / advertising

The new Viper isn's just for the United States, but for the whole world, not forgetting all those millionaire Chinese and Middle Easterns. That's why the Le Mans project makes sense.

Let me start off by saying this is not a personal attack on you or anyone else who continues to speculate about this rumored program. Anyways with that out of the way I really don't understand how one small far fetched (IMO) rumor has turned into almost certain fact on both this board and others. There as not even been a show prototype of the car let alone a production variant. About all this story has to run on is a few spy shots of what looks to be the previous gen viper with some camo covering the front and some small mentions of a program on twitter. Just because someone at dodge also happens to mention that they would like to bring the company back into racing does not mean jack. Sorry but I just don't see much if any credability in the story yet everyone seems to think its a done deal and a car will be racing next year...

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

It's dependent on how much money is being spent and who is spending it. Also crucial is where Dodge believes they are going to sell the most Vipers and where they want the Dodge brand to be built up.

Chris

This ^

Your second point is most important. Dodge sells less than 2k Vipers a year. The Viper name is most important for brand image rather than sales.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by TerribleWone

Let me start off by saying this is not a personal attack on you or anyone else who continues to speculate about this rumored program. Anyways with that out of the way I really don't understand how one small far fetched (IMO) rumor has turned into almost certain fact on both this board and others. There as not even been a show prototype of the car let alone a production variant. About all this story has to run on is a few spy shots of what looks to be the previous gen viper with some camo covering the front and some small mentions of a program on twitter. Just because someone at dodge also happens to mention that they would like to bring the company back into racing does not mean jack. Sorry but I just don't see much if any credability in the story yet everyone seems to think its a done deal and a car will be racing next year...

Actually, your wrong. The 2013 mule is running, and has been seen by some. It seems the rumour started by a comment from someone within the program, at least that is where the twitter comment comes from. That doesn't mean it's a done deal of course... but your argument is flawed at best.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by TerribleWone

Just because someone at dodge also happens to mention that they would like to bring the company back into racing does not mean jack. Sorry but I just don't see much if any credability in the story yet everyone seems to think its a done deal and a car will be racing next year...

Bill Riley went to the last ACO GT rules meeting on Dodge's behalf, doesn't mean a car is running but the story is more than just rumour.

[TerribleWone]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Actually, your wrong. The 2013 mule is running, and has been seen by some.

I know I said that in my post as well...

Originally Posted by TerribleWone

About all this story has to run on is a few spy shots of what looks to be the previous gen viper with some camo covering the front

.
.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It seems the rumour started by a comment from someone within the program

mentioned that too

Originally Posted by TerribleWone

Just because someone at dodge also happens to mention that they would like to bring the company back into racing does not mean jack.

.
.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

That doesn't mean it's a done deal of course... but your argument is flawed at best.

Exactly the same conclusion I made also!

Originally Posted by TerribleWone

yet everyone seems to think its a done deal and a car will be racing next year...

You pretty much backed up every point I made only to say I have a flawed argument? The whole point of my post was that people seem to treat these rumors as facts yet there is almost no evidence to support the program in question. Even you admit that its not a done deal and that's exactly what I was getting at. I think you took my tone or argument the wrong way.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Dodge running a Le Mans GTE = worldwide project / advertising
Dodge running a Grand-Am Rolex GT = American project / advertising

The new Viper isn's just for the United States, but for the whole world, not forgetting all those millionaire Chinese and Middle Easterns. That's why the Le Mans project makes sense.

A company who was saved from bankruptcy by the U.S. Government with taxpayers money, knows who is buttering its bread, and who it had damn well better cater to.

[MitchZ06]

Yeah, it'll be an ALMS program with customer cars for Europe/elsewhere, think outside the box!

[Deleted]

So guys, sorry if this has been discussed earlier, but now that Belle Island is slowly making it's comeback to IndyCar calendar, what are the chances of ALMS returning there as well? I loved that little venue and thought it was yet another successful joint event.

http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...r-s-Grand-Prix-

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Chiana

So guys, sorry if this has been discussed earlier, but now that Belle Island is slowly making it's comeback to IndyCar calendar, what are the chances of ALMS returning there as well? I loved that little venue and thought it was yet another successful joint event.

http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...r-s-Grand-Prix-

Hell Isle, no thanks. Especially if the ALMS ends up dropping the best street circuit on the schedule next year as some have hinted at. I know the circuit was complete pants, but I actually enjoyed the atmosphere of St Petersburg as well. Dont want any more street parades than we already have, but after the unusual (for a street circuit) mega success of Baltimore I have a bad feeling about this.

But if I could pick one joint event to do with Indycar, it would have to be Barber, love the circuit and it puts on great grand am races. But because of the previous factor I doubt an ALMS/Indycar weekend will ever happen there.

[Deleted]

I continue to disagree with your views on street circuits, but Barber on the other hand... one of my favourite tracks on the whole continent, wish GA would switch places with ALMS. Give us Barber and we'll trade you, I don't know, Mid-Ohio. GA would get better crowds than with the current stand-alone weekend.

[Jonerz]

Barber is certainly a beautiful facility and it is hard for sportscar races not to be exciting, what with the multi-classes creating intra- and inter-class overtaking. However, it doesn't provide many overtaking opportunities on its own. However, despite my own personal bias against Barber it seems to draw reasonably well and would provide a very picturesque backdrop for the photogs. However, trading Mid-Ohio, as unlikely as that would be, I wouldn't sacrifice the crowd Mid-O draws for Barber.

Further, Long Beach will be an unfortunate loss for the series from a prestige standpoint but the event hasn't been the same since 07. Smaller grandstands, likely a smaller (still decent and demographically/psychographically important) crowd. With the loss of Long Beach I just don't see a benefit. How many more fans would make the drive to Laguna for the six hours if they are stripped of the ALMS at LB. How many will fully understand the difference between Grand-Am and ALMS and feel the need to search out the ALMS elsewhere?

Detroit would be nice because you add probably 30 000 unique fans to the series roster. The downside is the circuit isn't great. I've also heard the teams that do Le Mans are willing to leave a little later or work around it to get back to Detroit.

As far as St. Pete is concerned, I quite like the layout from a driver's perspective. My Dad has been to that race and he enjoyed it from a fan's perspective.

Chris