Lotus 20 / 22 / 20-22

[Neptune]

Several months ago, one of the moderators suggested I ask a question of the Lotus 20 thread, but oh wait, there isn't one. Why don't you start one then, so here it is, started.

I've had a 20-22 for quite a while now. It was a Jim Russell 20, crashed sometime prior to the 1964 season, and rebuilt & upgraded onto a new replacement Arch Motors 22 frame by JRRDS. Like all Russell cars of the period, it went to MGM and became a faux F1 in the movie Grand Prix.

My car in particular became a Yamura. It and three other cars were sold into Florida after the movie debut and raced in SCCA FC class.

Just this autumn, I have acquired the remains of the 2nd Team Rosebud Lotus 20. I never realized how different the 20 & 22 were until I have them side by side.

In the top of the 20 frame, the area right in front of the dash bulkhead, the triangulation tubes are reversed to the 22. Just in front of that, there is a single diagonal brace in that section where the 22 has a "W" brace. Of course the dash bulkhead is only faced on the rear in the 20 and both front/ rear on the 22. The 20 has a battery box right behind the radiator, where the 22 houses an oil tank there.

The main frame longerons are 1in and 1-1/4 in on both cars, but although the 20 carries water through the larger tubes, there is no attempt to carry oil in the smaller ones.

On the 22 frame, there are tabs or plates welded to the bottom of the top longeron tubes and the top of the bottom tubes in the footbox area.These to hold the side panels of the footbox. There is no such arrangement on the 20, yet the 20 looks to have a similar footbox.

Question: How are these side footbox panels held in place on the 20?
Roger

[PeterMorley]

Presumably your 20 chassis didn't need oil tubes running the length of the car because it didn't have an oil tank at the front?

Could be it was not dry sumped initially and might not even have had an oil cooler at the front (e.g. not combined with the water radiator).

IIRC the aluminium panels on the side of the footbox are pop rivetted to the vertical tubes & the body mounts (e.g. all but the water tubes which might leak!).

I vaguely remember other differences - there is some difference where the rear lower longeron joins the driver bulkhead and something like a water pipe exits in the same area on one version.

The lower rear (inboard) wishbone mountiing is wider on one than the other (e.g. one has shorter wishbones), and of course the upper rear damper mount is changed to accept the top link on a 22.

Peter

[Neptune]

Peter,

I've looked and there are rivet holes in the body mounts, and the top longeron tube on the right and bottom left, the ones not carrying coolant. The radiator I got has the cooler in the bottom, but I'll bet it isn't original. I am assuming the front edge of the side panels rivet to the front panel the same as the 22. I see no evidence that the side panels were ever riveted to the verticle tubes.

The rear of the frame was modified extensively to accept a destroked /Alfa Guilietta engine and an unknown gearbox, so I don't know what the lower wishbones attached. I did get a pair of original rear wishbones, but I have not compared them to 22 items. They look the same, but I suppose they could be shorter.

This was the Rosebud 20 that was crashed at 1962 Sebring 12hr support race, number 12. It came back to Ohio after that race, was modified and continued to race in SCCA for a few years.

Roger

[pantah]

I have recently purchased Lotus 22 from the estate of the late Edward Finn.
The AM number AM-61 is stamped in the usual location at the top of the rear LH shock mount.

Interestingly, the removable rear crossmember / engine bay brace has AM-49 stamped on it! No chassis plate in evidence - apart from the drilled rivet-holes where it would have been.

The only information we are able to obtain is that he purchased it less engine and gearbox as a damaged car from a 'race-school' in 1975. There is correspondence dated 1978 between him and Lotus asking about spares etc. Obviously the rebuild was a long term project !

His wife informs us that he competed at Goodwood in it a long time ago. The lack of fire extinguisher, 2" 4-point harness, no foam-filled tank, no cut-off switch etc, etc, suggests it has not competed for a long time.

The colour is what could best be described as Lotus 'Pistachio' green, or to my eyes 'Kawasaki' green.

Any information / photos would be most welcome in my efforts to complete the identity of this car.

[Neptune]

Pantah,

Typically Lotus 22s have their Arch Motors ID nos along the bottom of the dash bulkhead, not marked directly into the chassis, but rather on little steel tags that were then brazed onto the chassis. I believe the markings you are describing are more in line with the way Lotus 51 and later chassis were marked. What engine is in your new car?

Roger

[pantah]

Originally Posted by Neptune

Pantah,

Typically Lotus 22s have their Arch Motors ID nos along the bottom of the dash bulkhead, not marked directly into the chassis, but rather on little steel tags that were then brazed onto the chassis. I believe the markings you are describing are more in line with the way Lotus 51 and later chassis were marked. What engine is in your new car?

Roger

Thank you for your information. The chassis clearly isn't a 22, as we have established, but now having had opportunity to go through the large paperwork files which came with the car, correspondence exists between the former owner and Lotus dating back to 1978, in which both parties refer to the car as a type 31, and make reference to either a Cosworth MAE engine, or a Holbay R35 engine. I also know now he purchased it from JRRS at Snetterton.

Might I direct you to a new topic.....

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122024

Regards.

[ChrisChilcott]

Originally Posted by Neptune

Several months ago, one of the moderators suggested I ask a question of the Lotus 20 thread, but oh wait, there isn't one. Why don't you start one then, so here it is, started.

I've had a 20-22 for quite a while now. It was a Jim Russell 20, crashed sometime prior to the 1964 season, and rebuilt & upgraded onto a new replacement Arch Motors 22 frame by JRRDS. Like all Russell cars of the period, it went to MGM and became a faux F1 in the movie Grand Prix.

My car in particular became a Yamura. It and three other cars were sold into Florida after the movie debut and raced in SCCA FC class.

Just this autumn, I have acquired the remains of the 2nd Team Rosebud Lotus 20. I never realized how different the 20 & 22 were until I have them side by side.

In the top of the 20 frame, the area right in front of the dash bulkhead, the triangulation tubes are reversed to the 22. Just in front of that, there is a single diagonal brace in that section where the 22 has a "W" brace. Of course the dash bulkhead is only faced on the rear in the 20 and both front/ rear on the 22. The 20 has a battery box right behind the radiator, where the 22 houses an oil tank there.

The main frame longerons are 1in and 1-1/4 in on both cars, but although the 20 carries water through the larger tubes, there is no attempt to carry oil in the smaller ones.

On the 22 frame, there are tabs or plates welded to the bottom of the top longeron tubes and the top of the bottom tubes in the footbox area.These to hold the side panels of the footbox. There is no such arrangement on the 20, yet the 20 looks to have a similar footbox.

Question: How are these side footbox panels held in place on the 20?
Roger

Re the 2nd Rosebud 20 - I thought both these were in Europe now. One belonging to Erwin Van Gelder & the other (which I nearly bought in 2005) was for sale by Mark Green/Steve Worrad in 2005. I think it was sold to a chap living in Monaco & competed in the Monaco Historic GP around 2006 or 2008. The Van Gelder car is now in 20/22 form. I understand Rosebud also had a 22 as well as the two 20s. I dont know the chassis numbers for the two 20s but could find out.

[Bryan Miller]

Gents ,

In regard to frame numbers ,

I owned / rescued 20-J-965 some 30 years ago , that was a very strange item, the car was sold new to Geoghegan's in Sydney as Lotus agents having just taken over from Derek Jolly of South Australia .
20-J-965 , agent Geoghegan , eng. no. 762301 , gearbox , H 3868092 , Weber 40DCOE2 numbers 10988 and 11081 , colour black , ex works 9-3-1962
I spoke to Leo Geoghegan about the car which he well remembered due to the fact he was already running his 22-J-49 and in to the car yard came a Yank and wished to purchase a Lotus 20 not even a 22 , Leo told me this was pennies from heaven as '' they were dying in the bum '' with this last unsold Lotus 20 , the purchaser was Ken Milburn , an American , that was his assumed name as his correct name was Kent Price and his father was very big in the USA political system and so as to be able to race he came to Australia and ran under the assumed name as racing was apparently a no no
in the family.
When I rescued the car circa 1978 and stripped it down I found the following
stamped into the flat vertical plate [ engine side] that connects horizontal and diagonal tubes behind the seat back XX LC 1 .
I suspect this car is either the jig car or prototype and in the best tradition of Lotus , March etc. probably lay around after doing it's original job at Lotus Components and late in the piece when an order came in was given a quick refresh and sold to poor old unsuspecting Aussie Agents as a brand new car.

I have looked at other Lotus 20s and have never sighted any frame numbers.

Duncan and I appear to be the only people with the records , I have records of 119 Lotus 20 s , which more accords with Doug Nye's Lotus book which calls out 118 off than the suggested 180 off earlier in this thread.

Bryan Miller.

[Bryan Miller]

Pantah,

To answer your question re chassis plates , all the cars that came in in 1961/2 carried chassis plates as per sales list to either Derek Jolly or later the Geoghegans , two are here that do not have plates , both these were bought in by the late Frank Gardner , Frank told me years ago that he built them both up for Jim Russell at the '' Downham common market '' for JRRDS , which will mean more to you English folks than I , and at season end he purchased and bought them over here to sell to pay his way.

Bryan.

[Neptune]

Chris,

In personal emails to Erwin, his car carries chassis number 22 J 001, but he has always referred to the car as a 20/22. I had asked him for some more detailed photos years ago, but they never arrived. I think he considered the first 22 as being a modified 20, and I always wondered if the car had a vertical engine and other carry-overs from the previous model.

All three of Rosebud's cars ran the support, semi-pro FJ races at Daytona and Sebring in February and March 1962. The Daytona race was won by the 22 and Sebring was won by Pat Pigot in one of the 20s. The other 20 was crashed by Chuck Parsons late in the race. I have a couple of period photos, one showing the three cars before the Sebring race together on the concrete surface at Sebring and another showing my car damaged from the accident with Sebring barracks in the background. Earlier this year, a friend who was on the Healey team at Sebring in the early 60s sent me a video showing my works Sprite at Sebring and LeMans and also the Lotus 20 crashed in the same location as the still photo I have.

The team Rosebud cars all had 1-1/2" diameter tube rollbars, distinctive from the normal 1" diam on most 20s and 22s. My 20 chassis still has that roll-bar in place, and it goes all the way down to the bottom of the chassis. It is in terrible shape and will have to be replaced, along with some other tubes, some from accident damage, others from the modifications inflicted to allow fitting of a destroked Alfa motor in the mid-60s.

Edwin Cromwell bought the remains of the Parsons Rosebud 20 after Sebring and brought it back to Dayton Ohio. He repaired it and raced it and modified it to race in SCCa's FC class for unlimited 1100cc cars, by fitting an 1100cc Alfa Romeo engine. His next step was to abandon the Lotus chassis and build his own. Eventually, he sold that car complete and the 20 chassis was sold as parts. I have spoken to Edwin several times, but I have not been able to actually meet with him, only 70 miles from my home. The continual ownership of the chassis is known, going to another Dayton man, who sold it with a 21 project in the mid-80s to Atlanta. A 2nd Atlanta owner moved the chassis to Iowa several years later and I bought it from him in 2008.

You mention you could find the chassis numbers for the 2 Rosebud 20s. I have supposed the cars were bought from one of the 2 Lotus distributors at the time, either Jay Chamberlain or Sy Kabac in New York. Seems like I have seen a reference to an 18 as being the car traded in for the purchase of one of the 20s and I believe this was to Chamberlain.

Any help you could give in identifying my car would be greatly appreciated.

Roger

[Bryan Miller]

Roger,

Jay Chamberlain's name does not appear anywhere on the sales sheets , the USA cars seem either to go as you say to Cy Kabach or a lot went to Briggs Enterprises , whether that was a trading name of Chamberlain's or not you would know better than I.

[ChrisChilcott]

Originally Posted by Neptune

Chris,

In personal emails to Erwin, his car carries chassis number 22 J 001, but he has always referred to the car as a 20/22. I had asked him for some more detailed photos years ago, but they never arrived. I think he considered the first 22 as being a modified 20, and I always wondered if the car had a vertical engine and other carry-overs from the previous model.

All three of Rosebud's cars ran the support, semi-pro FJ races at Daytona and Sebring in February and March 1962. The Daytona race was won by the 22 and Sebring was won by Pat Pigot in one of the 20s. The other 20 was crashed by Chuck Parsons late in the race. I have a couple of period photos, one showing the three cars before the Sebring race together on the concrete surface at Sebring and another showing my car damaged from the accident with Sebring barracks in the background. Earlier this year, a friend who was on the Healey team at Sebring in the early 60s sent me a video showing my works Sprite at Sebring and LeMans and also the Lotus 20 crashed in the same location as the still photo I have.

The team Rosebud cars all had 1-1/2" diameter tube rollbars, distinctive from the normal 1" diam on most 20s and 22s. My 20 chassis still has that roll-bar in place, and it goes all the way down to the bottom of the chassis. It is in terrible shape and will have to be replaced, along with some other tubes, some from accident damage, others from the modifications inflicted to allow fitting of a destroked Alfa motor in the mid-60s.

Edwin Cromwell bought the remains of the Parsons Rosebud 20 after Sebring and brought it back to Dayton Ohio. He repaired it and raced it and modified it to race in SCCa's FC class for unlimited 1100cc cars, by fitting an 1100cc Alfa Romeo engine. His next step was to abandon the Lotus chassis and build his own. Eventually, he sold that car complete and the 20 chassis was sold as parts. I have spoken to Edwin several times, but I have not been able to actually meet with him, only 70 miles from my home. The continual ownership of the chassis is known, going to another Dayton man, who sold it with a 21 project in the mid-80s to Atlanta. A 2nd Atlanta owner moved the chassis to Iowa several years later and I bought it from him in 2008.

You mention you could find the chassis numbers for the 2 Rosebud 20s. I have supposed the cars were bought from one of the 2 Lotus distributors at the time, either Jay Chamberlain or Sy Kabac in New York. Seems like I have seen a reference to an 18 as being the car traded in for the purchase of one of the 20s and I believe this was to Chamberlain.

Any help you could give in identifying my car would be greatly appreciated.

Roger

Roger,

Details of Erwins car on following link. The engine is still vertical, but otherwise it is in 22 form – 13” rear wheels, outboard discs, revised top link on rear suspension etc.

http://www.classic-auctions.com/Auct...or-32694.aspx#

From the above link the history is:-

...... the chassis plate was that of a 22, which the car had worn since at least 1982, when the Lotus was sold by California-based classic car dealer Ron Cameron of California Sports Cars to West Coast lawyer Chris Gruys.

It seems that, though he never raced it during his tenure, Gruys did have the car restored before later selling it to Richard Santucci & Son of New Jersey in 1995.

------------------------------------------------------------------

The car was unsold at the auction and Erwin was competing with it at Dijon a couple of weeks ago. It (And Erwin) is very quick!.
I'll look through my notes & try to find the chassis no of the other Rosebud 20 I saw in 2005.
Presumably Erwin's car is not the ex Rosebud 22 though?

Chris

[PaulieG]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Gents ,

In regard to frame numbers ,

I owned / rescued 20-J-965 some 30 years ago , that was a very strange item, the car was sold new to Geoghegan's in Sydney as Lotus agents having just taken over from Derek Jolly of South Australia .
20-J-965 , agent Geoghegan , eng. no. 762301 , gearbox , H 3868092 , Weber 40DCOE2 numbers 10988 and 11081 , colour black , ex works 9-3-1962
I spoke to Leo Geoghegan about the car which he well remembered due to the fact he was already running his 22-J-49 and in to the car yard came a Yank and wished to purchase a Lotus 20 not even a 22 , Leo told me this was pennies from heaven as '' they were dying in the bum '' with this last unsold Lotus 20 , the purchaser was Ken Milburn , an American , that was his assumed name as his correct name was Kent Price and his father was very big in the USA political system and so as to be able to race he came to Australia and ran under the assumed name as racing was apparently a no no
in the family.
When I rescued the car circa 1978 and stripped it down I found the following
stamped into the flat vertical plate [ engine side] that connects horizontal and diagonal tubes behind the seat back XX LC 1 .
I suspect this car is either the jig car or prototype and in the best tradition of Lotus , March etc. probably lay around after doing it's original job at Lotus Components and late in the piece when an order came in was given a quick refresh and sold to poor old unsuspecting Aussie Agents as a brand new car.

I have looked at other Lotus 20s and have never sighted any frame numbers.

Duncan and I appear to be the only people with the records , I have records of 119 Lotus 20 s , which more accords with Doug Nye's Lotus book which calls out 118 off than the suggested 180 off earlier in this thread.

Bryan Miller.

Hi Bryan,

I have a Lotus 20 in NZ that was imported by an Anthony Eres Shaw & Bryan (Hank) Rossiter who bought it through John Sprinzel. The car arrived in NZ in Oct/Nov 1965 and was raced in NZ until it was crashed in1970/71 and was subsequently sold and stored, until our purchase in 1997. We have the car in a mock up rolling chassis and have a new nose cone as the original one was quite badly damaged. The car had a 1100cc motor with a 4 spd hewland gearbox and was a light/mid pastel blue colour upon arrival in NZ. At some stage the 1100cc was traded out for a 1500cc and the gearbox upgraded to a 5 spd. Although it still has the Hewland Gearbox housing. The flat plate was removed to make way for the 1500cc and the chassis plate has been stripped or removed over the 10 years it was active. I am curious if there is any other way to trace the ownership back to the factory as I have spoken to Hank Rossiter and he knows the car was owned by one owner in europe. We have numerous part numbers from around the car and am wondering if it was possible to trace this way. Your thoughts are appreciated.

[Neptune]

Paulie,

If you'll notice, Bryan included other numbers such as the s/n of the Weber carbs in his description of the 20 he rescued. If this car originated with a VW based Hewland, it would be so easy to upgrade from 4 to 5 spd, so the case could be the same. The Weber numbers would help too. Bryan may be able help.

Does the Hewland retain the inboard drum brakes? I'd like very much to see the side covers and adapters used to do this.

I don't understand what you mean when you say the plate was removed to install a 1500 engine. I've had a 1500 in my car for one shakedown weekend and I don't remember any plate that would've been in the way.

Roger

[Bryan Miller]

Paulie,

Is this the car first registered to car dealer Tony Shaw in 1965 thence to Graham Baker then Bill McCabe in 1970 and badly damaged in a crash at Teretonga thence to Neil Neilson then Ian Bisman in Ohoka ??

As left factory Lotus 20s had either VW [ not Hewland modified ] or Renault 4 speed gearboxes , drum front and rear brakes , most were updated pretty quickly with front discs .
Even if the plate was still intact with a frame number there is no correlation between that and the chassis number that I am aware of.
If it is the above car and has been around since circa 1965 I would think it safe to assume it is a genuine car , which one is the question.
What are the Weber carb. numbers please if they are the originals they should be 40 DCOE2 xxxx and xxxx may even be 5 xxxxx s
Is it definately a Hewland ?? if so what numbers are on it ??

As Roger asked does it retain inboard drums at rear and are they cast iron or finned alloy drums.

Bryan Miller.

[Lotus20Guy]

Hello Im new here and the excited owner of a 1961 lotus 20. I purchased the car from a collector in California who knew very little of the car, and did not have any log books or knowledge of its history other than whom he purchased it from.
After spending days looking for a chassis number, I struck out and started the investigation of its history. I have researched it back to Ted Smith who acquired in late 1997 raced the car in several events on both coasts here in the colony's during the 1998 season. He was researching the cars past on many sites before his untimely passing in late 1998. Reading his posts,and reply's it seems he felt the car possibly came from NZ, im guessing because of the lack of chassis ID stamp. He was aware the car had not been raced in the eight years before his purchase. I traced the fuel cell purchase in 1997 to a Bill Dolson's shop in NJ ironically ( since I reside in NJ also), (don't hold it against me)but it closed in 2004, I've located his cell and left a message, hoping to hear back as he certainly holds some clues if he remembers the car or has retained records. He either owned the car or did restoration work on it. The Key to identifying this car is the Frame has been Stretched 5.5 Inches in the midsection of the main frame tubes, (the welding is exceptional) and possibly dates back to its manufacturing, not sure. The car was entered and raced by Mr. Smith in several events in 1998 as a 20B, it has a 105 E and Renault Dolphine gearbox. It appears to have the 20/22 conversion to discs & additional rear suspension bar. Its currently Red #20 but chips on the (also stretched nose) clearly show it was BRG at one point. I have many many pictures of the car and would gladly email anyone interested in seeing them.
Im hoping this forum is still active as it has provided the most insite into this fascinating aspect of owning a vintage lotus. thanks and hope to hear from you, feel free to email me. B.C.

[Blackie]

You have a Lotus 22 that has some similar history to ours. We purchased ours out of Florida some years ago. We believe our car may be one of the Russell cars you mentioned in your post. Our serial number is 22FJ-36 and has SCCA Florida region numbers on the roll bar. Would like to compare notes!

Blackie

[Neptune]

Blackie,

Send me a PM through this site and I will reply by e-mail. Although I was never able to find the Florida couple that bought the four cars from MGM, I was able to find their mechanic through SCCA contacts, and he was able to tell me some interesting tales.

I also have some old "Competition Press & Autoweek" mags and there was another 20/22 for sale in '68 or '69 and I was able to trace that seller from decades earlier through SCCA. He had bought the identical car to mine from the Williams family. He remembered the other duplicate car (my 20 J 962) when he made his purchase. He kept it, raced it and a year later was selling it through CP&A. I'll try to find my correspondence with him, but its been 10 years now.

SCCA didn't require log books and matching roll bar numbers until 1971 or 72, so it'll be a long shot if we can get anything to line up, but its certainly worth a try.

I think I had gotten a list of ex-JRRRDS cars at one time, so I may be able to confirm or not your car number being a Russell car.

Roger

[Rupertlt1]

Can anybody identify the Al Pease 'Honest Ed'-sponsored Lotus 20 from the early sixties in Ontario, Canada?

[vegantune]

I am based in Ireland. I have a lotus 20 chassis. Unfortunately there is no chassis number tag. I want to try to find the frame number. This chassis has been in our family's possession since the mid 1960's . It has laid idle in our owner ship since. I would like to find out about the chassis early life. Should I be looking at the near side rear suspension mount for the frame number. Thanks

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by vegantune

I am based in Ireland. I have a lotus 20 chassis. Unfortunately there is no chassis number tag. I want to try to find the frame number. This chassis has been in our family's possession since the mid 1960's . It has laid idle in our owner ship since. I would like to find out about the chassis early life. Should I be looking at the near side rear suspension mount for the frame number. Thanks

Apart from the rear face of the rear suspension mounts (worth looking at both sides) you could also try the cross tube that goes between them or on the underside of the top part of the middle bulkhead (near the steering column support).

Some frames might never have had numbers and given the length of time your family has had the frame I think you would find it is acceptable anyway (assuming you were to turn it into a car).

[PeterMorley]

Don't know if it helps but wasn't the guy who started race-cars.com Bill Dolson?
Maybe it's the same guy?

[Lotus20Guy]

Hey thanks for your interest. Yes it was, he sold the site to web specialists whom Ive spoke with this week, they had no car or history info but did give me
his Cell which I am awaiting a reply. The fuel cell was purchased from fuel safe in huntington beach by Mr. Dolson. Its my last lead and a good one, he has left the racing world but im hoping he will return my call soon. Regards, B.

[Bryan Miller]

Reply to both Vegantune and Lotus 20 guy.

Frame number may also be found on the vertical flat panel behind drivers back on rear face if this still exists .

That is where I found mine 25 years ago on 20-J-965 .

There is no difference on a Lotus 20 chassis length whether or not it had a VW or Renault Dauphine gearbox.

The mind boggles as to what the reason was for a 5.5'' extension , very tall driver perhaps .

[Lotus20Guy]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Reply to both Vegantune and Lotus 20 guy.

Frame number may also be found on the vertical flat panel behind drivers back on rear face if this still exists .

That is where I found mine 25 years ago on 20-J-965 .

There is no difference on a Lotus 20 chassis length whether or not it had a VW or Renault Dauphine gearbox.

The mind boggles as to what the reason was for a 5.5'' extension , very tall driver perhaps .

Hey Brian, I've seen that post and picture of that and looked immediately when the car arrived. Now just thinking the tube sections are 5.5 inches but that does not necessarily mean the frame stretch was that, My Wheelbase now measures 95" best I can measure by myself !! What is the correct wheelbase ?? Not sure why I cannot post pictures here, it would be extremely helpful if I could. Regards, Blake.