Should Marshals Be Paid??

[Dave Brand]

OK, how about this:

Overnight hotel accommodation.
£10 expenses for each day's racing.
Packed lunch.
A couple of club t-shirts a season.

Sounds like an impossible dream?

It's what Bemsee, the bike racing club, does for its marshals.

.....and their race meetings are some of the best-organised I've marshalled at.

[Muppetrescue]

Funny , same thing here for bikes in Ireland. First person to meet you is the CoC who thanks you for coming, gives you a doggy bag and a lunch voucher. Last person you see before you leave is the CoC saying thankyou very much.

Bikes never seem to struggle for marshals , funny that isn't it!!

[Richard Sneader]

Last season I marshaled 2 bike meetings to see what it was like. 1 at Combe and 1 at Brands for a club called BEMSEE( I think thats what they are called). At sign on you recieved a packed lunch of good quality £5 and if you signed on before 08:00 you got a free breakfast.
This I thought was a nice gesture then you got on post.
Although there was a good number of marshals for a club meeting on every post the downside was the standard of marshaling I witnessed was poor. Our corner commander kept going to sleep or was reading his book during races. Also he could not grasp the idea that we put the red flag out when we saw the red lights go on during races indeed a couple of post didnt bother. I counted in our vicinety of 4 posts we were the only flag point to use the blue flag.
So to sum up I agree that we as 4 wheel marshals have a lot of problems to sort about conditions and there always seems to be more bike marshals at there meetings but even though they have more incentives with breakfast,s etc there standards seem to be very low.
We should be given some form of travel expense and most definetly a free breakfast at every circuit but our standard are alot higher and better.
Richard Sneader...

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by rzsio396

Although there was a good number of marshals for a club meeting on every post the downside was the standard of marshaling I witnessed was poor.
Richard Sneader...

I do both cars & bikes, so I've got a good basis for comparison.
I'd have to say that, on the whole, bike marshalling standards are not up to car levels. There are two grading systems for bike marshals - ACU & Racesafe (Racesafe is the outfit which marshals BSB, WSB & GPs). The ACU system is very slack - I had two ACU licences last year, two different grades! Racesafe is better, but not much. I think some bike marsahals are only doing the job to see racing for free!

Flagging is an interseting point. For bikes there are no specialist flag marshals - it's just something everybody does. Racesafe stipulates that to upgrade to experienced incident marshsal six flagging signatures are required.

There was some discussion of blue flagging on the Bemsee forum last year. A rider complained about the lack of blue flags at one meeting. A very good point made by one of the marshals was that at that particular meeting they had been short of flag marshals & if there is only one flag marshal at a flag point, then (s)he must give priority to the yellow flag, which means looking down the track facing away from the racing. Personally, I find blue flagging very difficult...in fact, flagging in general requires a very high level of concentration.

[KayBee]

As someone who marshals for both bikes and cars I have found that the grading and training systems for cars much more structured. I have, however, met many marshals who started off in cars and have now moved over to bikes because there is better racing in bikes.

It would be interesting to hear from other marshals who do both bikes and cars as to their opinions of the comparisons in the standard of bike and car marshalling.

[Stephen Green]

I have only done a car and bike meeting combined once, many years ago at Brands, and I dare say things have changed a great deal since then. The biggest shock I got was the bike marshals were wearing shorts, T shirts and trainers! There was me in full fireproof undies, orange overals and boots (very fetching of course!). The other thing that worried me a great deal was, that when there was an incident, the yellow flag marshal ran trackside standing at the scene of the accodent waving his flag like a madman.

Now call me daft if you like, but the guy was putting himself in great danger by doing this, and of course he forgets that all curcuits have licensed marshals posts, at which the relevant signals are supposed to be displayed from. hence the green flag lap, to let drivers/riders know where the marshals points are on the circuit!

[Richard Sneader]

On the subject of Bike marshals There was the BSB incident at Warwick Bridge at Oulton last year where( witnessed on telly) when the marshals were retrieving a bike after an incident the leaking fuel caught light causing 1 marshal with no gloves on to move his hands extrememly fast and do a unique waving hands dance. Watching bike racing on telly yesterday on Moto+ on Sky I noticed that some of the marshals on post 5 Devils Elbow at Lydden were sat down during the races.
I am not saying car marshals are perfect, we are not as we have our fair share of them who choose to play using there own rules however We do seem to install higher standards and dicipline track side and yes we always were overalls and gloves in all weathers.( you would have to be a fool not to).Our training seems to be of a higher standard.
I personaly after my own couple of experiences doing bike meetings will never do a bike meeting again. I just couldnt trust the teams I was with.
At Combe last year for the MRO meeting in May I was on Bobbies out. During the green flag lap and the first lap our corner commander was on top of the protective mound with his cam corder filming.
I rest my case...
Richard Sneader...

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by rzsio396
On the subject of Bike marshals There was the BSB incident at Warwick Bridge at Oulton last year where( witnessed on telly) when the marshals were retrieving a bike after an incident the leaking fuel caught light causing 1 marshal with no gloves on to move his hands extrememly fast and do a unique waving hands dance.

Funny you should mention that!

I've just come back from a Racesafe training day at Oulton. The video of that incident was shown several times, much to the embarassment of the marshal concerned! It may be worth pointing out that he marshals cars as well as bikes.....

[Stephen Green]

Oooops! The main thing is that we ALL learn from his/her mistake.

[Teletubby]

I have been at a number of bike meetings, crewing a Rescue Unit and while I wouldn't want to criticise anybody who gives up their time for free I feel that possibly some of the Marshals seem to take enormous risks by going trackside during racing to retrieve/remove debris.

Very scary to watch!!!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Teletubby
I feel that possibly some of the Marshals seem to take enormous risks by going trackside during racing to retrieve/remove debris.

For that, you can blame the great god television. Mustn't interfere with their schedules!

In bike racing generally, especially at BSB level & above, it is accepted that marshals work on a live track. Debris removal is much more important for bikes, I think, than for cars - the consequences of a bike hitting it it are far more serious than they would be for a car.

Having said that, I would have to agree that a lot of bike marshals cross the line between acceptable risk & downright dangerous.

[Stephen Green]

It's the downright dangerous that worries me Dave. I'm still at a loss to know why national training days can't encompass both bike and car marshals, and are the bike guys licensed by the MSA as we are?

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
It's the downright dangerous that worries me Dave. I'm still at a loss to know why national training days can't encompass both bike and car marshals, and are the bike guys licensed by the MSA as we are?

Well, maybe 'downright dangerous' was overstating the case, but I've seen silly things, like marshals sitting on tyre walls during racing, marshals wearing trainers, IOs photographing incidents, etc,.

The 'headless chicken' approach to incidents is all too common at bike meetings - immediately a bike goes down, everybody on the post rushes to deal with it, crossing the track if necessary, leaving nobody to watch the track & to deal with a possible second incident. Taking a fire extinguisher to an incident is rarely seen.

The basic problem, from my perspective as someone who also does car marshalling, is that bike marshalling lacks discipline. It's very rare for an IO/sector marshal/corner commander to brief his team, designation of duties is all too often on the basis of 'I'll do this....', & the grading systems don't reflect marshals' abilities & experience.

Motorcycle racing is controlled, in the loosest sense of the word, by the ACU, an organisation which makes the MSA look good!

The ACU licences marshals, but marshals for British Superbikes, & World Superbikes & GPs in the UK, are supplied by Racesafe, which has its own licences & grading system. In neither case is the grading system as rigid or comprehensive as the MSA's. Racesafe's training is good; ACU training is left to individual clubs so it is of variable quality.

Joint training would, I think, in many ares, be advantageous, & it does happen to a small extent in such things as fire training. First we've got to get rid of the car marshals' attitude that bike marshals are cowboys & the bike marshals' attitude that car marshalling is over-regulated & snobbish.

[DarrellB]

I have done a number of bike meetings in the past and it always concerns me to see marshals sitting whilst there is action on the track. Having seen how far debris can fly it is important for a marshal to be aware at all times and to be able to move quickly when necessary. As for collecting debris from the track many car marshals have been required to do this and as long as there is consideration for the traffic (helped by good communication within the team) then this can normally be carried out safely and if it considered too dangerous then to ere on the side of caution is the best tactic.
As for using cameras whilst on duty I had to tell a young marshal at Combe to put away his camera as he was about to take a few pics of the first lap of the second F3 race last year. He looked at me quite surprised at this instruction especially when asked if he had seen the incident which happened in the first race; to which he replied he hadn't. I rest my case!

[Stephen Green]

Maybe it's about time that the ACU and Racesafe got together rather like the MSA and the BMMC and came up with a regulated marshalling structure. The last thing ANY of us wish to see are marshals gettinginjured, be they car or bike marshals.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Maybe it's about time that the ACU and Racesafe got together rather like the MSA and the BMMC and came up with a regulated marshalling structure. The last thing ANY of us wish to see are marshals gettinginjured, be they car or bike marshals.

The very existence of Racesafe is, in my opinion, a comment on the way the ACU runs the sport.......

[Anthony Bartlet]

I do not think marshals should be paid. the marshals that do it just now do it for the love of the sport, if you started paying people then real lovers of the sport would not get to do it because spaces would be filled by people just after the money. When i tell people what i do the first thing they usually ask is do you get paid, when you say no they are not interested. Tony B

[Marshal]

Hi Tony and welcome to 10-10ths. And what a great first post, I couldn't agree more

[Stephen Green]

Here, here.

May I join Marshal in welcoming you to ten-tenths.

Stephen.

[Red Dog]

Tony B - what an excellent attitude! I completely agree with you but my vote does not count so strongly as I see things from the other side of the barrier. I hope you enjoy marshalling as much as I do driving. The speed that you guys respond to an incident is truly comforting. I have given many a flag marshall's arm a bit of exercise recently, thankfully not the ones holding the red flag! Generally yellow (waved) and blue (waved frantically!)

My brother does quite a bit of marshalling (as well as some driving) and he would love a contribution towards his expenses, but he won't stop marshalling if none are forthcoming, because he enjoys it. Mind you, his orange overalls are fading to a very fetching pink. Hmmmm, all of this stuff is making me feel guilty at not having done any marshalling.....yet.

[Stephen Green]

Red Dog, you are welcome to join us on the banks at any time, overals of all colours are permitted . Which series do you drive in and will you be visiting Brands this year?

[N M Ramsden]

For me my biggest expense would be the damn Severn Bridge !! Ok it's only 4-quid something but add that up through the season and it's a fair amount. You'll all think it's my own fault for living in Wales but we all have our own individual faults !!!

Paying marshal's is a big no no. We must love the sport to be involved with it in the first place. Perhaps a decent T-shirt or Cap or some help towards overalls or equipment would be nice.

[Stephen Green]

Well Mr Ramsden, I promise not to mention sheep!

Seriously though, you echo the sentiments of the majority of marshals. I live in Kent and so if we wish to marshal anything north of the Thames (foreign lands indeed) we are faced with coughing up for the QE2 Bridge as well!

Take care and welcome to the forums!

Stephen.

[Teletubby]

I'm pretty sure we ought to charge you for LEAVING Wales and entering a civilised country!!

[Stephen Green]

Oh dear, I can see this degenerating into an England Wales rugby scrum!