ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Coach Ep]

And who knows, we might see Risi, Black Swan and United return for the Petit (or more end of season races).

[Matt]

might be going to baltimore now

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Ive an idea , why dont all the European teams just go and race in the ALMS .....

Forget about us Europeans and sponsorship commitments altogether . When will the ALMS come and race in Europe . Hard enough to get a few of them to do Le Mans , even when they win auto invites !!!

Im getting sick of this ALMS , ELMS & AsLMS deal ..... balls to the lot of them .

You want to go sportscar racing , well pull your finger out and go WEC , end of .

Why would you travel to Europe to compete when there is a sportscar series at your doorstep?

The LMS teams want to race, they've got race cars, we've got races (for the time being), why not? The WEC only has three European rounds, so how is racing there any better for sponsors and fans? I knew the WEC would damage the sport but I honestly thought the ALMS would go down first.

[Fogelhund]

Some people can't help but make this into a North America vs. Europe thing, it's been that way since some have been critical of the ILMC/WEC concept. It isn't about Europe vs. North America now, and never has been. It is about the health of the sport everywhere. If the ALMS can provide a stable place for the disaffected ELMS entrants for one, two or three events this year, a great solution for all. Make no bones about it though, the FIA and ACO created this mess through short-term and short sighted thinking. To think the ACO is announcing an AsLMS race, when they can't even get the "National" series right in their own backyard.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Some people can't help but make this into a North America vs. Europe thing, it's been that way since some have been critical of the ILMC/WEC concept. It isn't about Europe vs. North America now, and never has been. It is about the health of the sport everywhere. If the ALMS can provide a stable place for the disaffected ELMS entrants for one, two or three events this year, a great solution for all. Make no bones about it though, the FIA and ACO created this mess through short-term and short sighted thinking. To think the ACO is announcing an AsLMS race, when they can't even get the "National" series right in their own backyard.

I just wanted to drop by and say how strongly I agree with this statement.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Some people can't help but make this into a North America vs. Europe thing, it's been that way since some have been critical of the ILMC/WEC concept. It isn't about Europe vs. North America now, and never has been. It is about the health of the sport everywhere. If the ALMS can provide a stable place for the disaffected ELMS entrants for one, two or three events this year, a great solution for all. Make no bones about it though, the FIA and ACO created this mess through short-term and short sighted thinking. To think the ACO is announcing an AsLMS race, when they can't even get the "National" series right in their own backyard.

Originally Posted by Chiana

LMS site still shows Brno and Algarve on top, they're fast to react... but you've gotta love these article titles, almost as great as the poorly translated ones on the ACO web site:
COMBINED FINAL FOR ELMS AND ELMS

I also hate how they still insist on calling the series training ground for WEC... it's just a regional series, stop kissing world champ's and FIA's feet

e - sorry wrong thread, mods please move to ELMS one

I support both of these statements. It's about BETTERING ACO style racing, not just rearranging the best assets. You want everyone to wind up stronger as, obviously, that is the ONLY positive outcome for the sport.

Chris

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Why would you travel to Europe to compete when there is a sportscar series at your doorstep?

The LMS teams want to race, they've got race cars, we've got races (for the time being), why not? The WEC only has three European rounds, so how is racing there any better for sponsors and fans? I knew the WEC would damage the sport but I honestly thought the ALMS would go down first.

Plenty of Americans expect to see Sebring and PLM bolstered by European teams , dont they .

European sponsors dont nessessarliy want to go to the States . What good do Adria Airways get outta racing in ALMS , when their a small regional Slovenian airline ?

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Plenty of Americans expect to see Sebring and PLM bolstered by European teams , dont they .

European sponsors dont nessessarliy want to go to the States . What good do Adria Airways get outta racing in ALMS , when their a small regional Slovenian airline ?

I'd suspect that is a good question for some teams, but irrelevant for those on B2B relationships, or with those sponsors plastered on the car for vanity of someone associated with the team (perhaps even a driver). Do LMS teams have many "real" sponsorship, where they are contingent on eyeballs, and result in real activation?

Chris

[Speed-King]

Even B2B sponsorship needs activation. Not for the masses, but to those that fork over the dough you better give something in return, i.e. feed them in your hospitality tent, kiss their asses all weekend long, give them taxi rides in your race car... etc.

Not that easy (or cheap) to do that when you're on the wrong side of the pond.

[Purist]

Badger, I don't really see an uneven thing going on here. The Europeans come to our big race(s), and some top Americans go to the big European race. Generally, we don't expect European teams to show up to our regular season races.

It would help your case if races like the Nurburgring, Spa, Monza, and Silverstone/Brands Hatch 1000km had been held more consistently over the years. Sebring and Daytona have missed holding their endurance races no more than once since 1950 and 1962, respectively.

Here are how the various enduros stack up in terms of when they started and how many times they have been held:
1. 24 Hours of Le Mans, 1923, 80
2. 12 Hours of Sebring, 1950, 62
3. 24 Hours of Daytona, 1962, 50
4. Nurburgring 1000km, 1953, 39
5. Suzuka 1000km, 1967, 37
6. Watkins Glen 6 Hours, 1968, 32
7. Monza 1000km, 1954, 31
8. Road America 500, 1956, 29
9. Spa 1000km, 1953, 27
10. Kyalami 9 Hours, 1958, 26
11. Silverstone 1000km, 1976, 21
12. Brands Hatch 1000km, 1966, 19
13. Petit Le Mans, 1998, 15
14. Fuji 1000km, 1982, 14
15. Osterreichring 1000km, 1969, 8
16. Mosport 6 Hours,1977, 7
17. Mid Ohio 6 Hours, 1972, 6

Defunct:
1. Targa Florio, 1906, 57
2. Mille Miglia, 1927, 23
3. Paris 12 Hours/1000km, 1925, 22
4. Reims 12 Hours, 1953, 9
5. Riverside 6 Hours, 1975, 9
6. Carrera Panamericana, 1950, 5

[kober]

Originally Posted by Purist

9. Spa 1000km, 1953, 27

What's the requirement for a race to be considered as "enduro"? Longer than a GP? Note that the race has been held 46 times since 1953, including 36 races longer than 200 miles.
Also, what about 24 hours of Spa? Held 64 times since 1924. Sure, it wasn't always a sports car race, but 24 hours IS enduro, isn't?
And there's 24 hours of Nurburgring, 1970, 40 (not sports car though).

[Purist]

I was doing the sportscar races, more or less (the Targa Florio was run with Grand Prix cars and Voiturettes for a time). Generally, I was counting races of more than 500km or 3 hours, with the exceptions of perhaps a few Targa Florios and the 1962-63 Daytona Continentals. I expressly did NOT count the shortened races (480km, 430km, etc) run under the old WSC. The series was headed toward its end by then, and a much shorter race like that did nothing to build on the prestige/reputation of the enduro that preceded it.

Monza also had more sportscar races than I counted, but again, a number of those were substantially shorter, hence why they didn't make the endurance tally.

What has probably hurt the other European enduros (apart from Le Mans) most is the fact that they weren't run as endurance races, if they were run at all, from roughly 1989 to 2004.

And I have been even-handed here. I haven't counted the sprint races at Road America for 1988-93 or 2003-06 and 2009-10. I've omitted the shorter-duration races held at Watkins Glen in 1985-93, and the short course races held under Grand-Am that are run there on the NASCAR weekend.

I wanted to keep it to one race per track, but for Spa specifically, I also came to my conclusion on the 24 because it hasn't been a sportscar race since 1953, and I see little chance of it returning to being a sportscar race anytime soon. The Nurburgring 24 is a touring car race, as you say, but also, there's no way a top-level sportscar race will be held on that track configuration again. Heck, the real sticklers wouldn't even count the 1000km that have been held after 1983, because '83 was the last "Ring 1000 held on the Nordschleife.

(I might revise the Spa total to reflact the 24 Hours held for sportscars up until 1953.)

My main point was to look at the consistency that the various tracks have held endurance sportscar races, and in the last 25 years, the European record for this, outside of Le Mans itself, hasn't been so great.

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by Purist

I was doing the sportscar races, more or less (the Targa Florio was run with Grand Prix cars and Voiturettes for a time). Generally, I was counting races of more than 500km or 3 hours, with the exceptions of perhaps a few Targa Florios and the 1962-63 Daytona Continentals. I expressly did NOT count the shortened races (480km, 430km, etc) run under the old WSC. The series was headed toward its end by then, and a much shorter race like that did nothing to build on the prestige/reputation of the enduro that preceded it.

Monza also had more sportscar races than I counted, but again, a number of those were substantially shorter, hence why they didn't make the endurance tally.

What has probably hurt the other European enduros most is the fact that they weren't run as endurance races, if they were run at all, from roughly 1989 to 2004.

And I have been even-handed here. I haven't counted the sprint races at Road America for 1988-93 or 2003-06 and 2009-10. I've omitted the shorter-duration races held at Watkins Glen in 1985-93, and the short course races held under Grand-Am that are run there on the NASCAR weekend.

I wanted to keep it to one race per track, but for Spa specifically, I also came to my conclusion on the 24 because it hasn't been a sportscar race since 1953, and I see little chance of it returning to being a sportscar race anytime soon. The Nurburgring 24 is a touring car race, as you say, but also, there's no way a top-level sportscar race will be held on that track configuration again. Heck, the real sticklers wouldn't even count the 1000km that have been held after 1983, because '83 was the last "Ring 1000 held on the Nordschleife.

(I might revise the Spa total to reflact the 24 Hours held for sportscars up until 1953.)

My main point was to look at the consistency that the various tracks have held endurance sportscar races, and in the last 25 years, the European record for this, outside of Le Mans itself, hasn't been so great.

So your definition of "sportscar race" is GTs + Prototypes? Then what would the Spa 24 be? If GTs aren't considered sports cars by themselves, then what are they?

For example, if we consider the Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge which has GTs and Touring Cars, is it not really a sports car series then?

*aside* it seems that adding "Grand" in front of Touring makes a huge difference in the car world

[Purist]

It's a matter of connotation. Touring Cars, nowadays, generally means racing what are econoboxes in road-going form. Those cars themselves just don't excite me much, if at all.

GTs have started life as high-performance cars that run on the road, and are hotted-up from there.

As for the Sportscar/GT/Prototype thing, I think they were more or less interchangeable up through 1953 or so. I think Prototype Sportscars really began to separate themselves from GTs in 1954-55, with the arrival of the Jaguar D-Type, Mercedes-Benz 300SLR, Ferrari 410S, and Lancia D25.

GTs are road-going Grand Tourers and Sports Cars modified for racing. The main difference in road-going form for me is the car's handling. As an example, a Bugatti Veyron has 1,000hp, and an insane top-end speed, but there are other supercars with only 550-700hp that will beat it on the road course. The Bugatti Veyron is a Grand Tourer, while a McLaren F1 is a Sports Car. And a car like the Ferrari 599 GTO kind of straddles the line between the two in road-going terms.

A GT is a GT, and a TC is a TC. If a series is all production-based, then it's a GT, a GT/TC, or a TC series.

If they're using silhouettes, then it's a Silhouette GT series or a Silhouette Car series, depending on whether they're meant to look like GTs and production Sports Cars (Group 6, SCCA GT1), or they're meant to look like Sedans/Sedan Coupes (DTM, V8 Supercars, NASCAR).

Japan SuperGT is just all over the place with Silhouette GTs (ASL Garaiya, Nissan GT-R), actual GTs (FIA GT3s), and Silhouette TCs (Toyota Corolla Axio, Lexus SC430). I call it a GT series, because anything else would just be too complicated.

And as a direct response, I would say that the Spa 24 is a GT race. The CTSCC is a GT/TC series, though probably more TCs in the mix than GTs.

[Jonerz]

I think that the Super 2000 formula or perhaps even the Super Touring cars really were the factor that split touring cars and grand touring cars up as a class. A Mustang has bounced back and forth between being a touring car (sedan) and a GT car (the previous generation certainly screamed GT to me). A lot of it is down to personal opinion, but I think sports cars, grand touring cars and touring cars are all very closely related historically and I think touring car races, for example, are at their best when they feature grand tourers and tourers; Porsche 911s and BMW M3s for instance. And yet you can find both of those models in ACO and Grand-Am GT racing at the moment as well as Grand-Am touring car or "sports car" racing.

I had no bones with your list, Purist. Seemed to include the marquis events worldwide that have featured some combination of sports cars, sports prototypes, grand touring cars and touring cars over the years.

Keep in mind, the Spa 24 Hours only became a GT race in 2001 and seems to be the foundation of BES, so it only recently (in its history) has become the domain of "sports cars" as opposed to "touring cars" which it has been in the consciousness of most people.

Chris

[Purist]

Thank you, Jonerz. I'm glad you found my post useful, and yes, the Spa 24 has had an interesting history to say the least.

I'm not terribly clear just what happened with touring cars from the dark days of the '70s up till probably the mid '90s. However, I do know that I liked what was running in Australia up through 1985 or so, and also the 1995-96 ITC/DTM machinery. As for the Mustang comment, personally, I find the current muscle cars to seem more at home in TCs than GTs.

[Articus]

You forgot the N24!!

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Purist

As for the Mustang comment, personally, I find the current muscle cars to seem more at home in TCs than GTs.

Agreed about the current generation of pony cars, they've returned to their sedan roots.

But this generation Mustang:


And thisCamaro look more "GT" to me.

Originally Posted by Articus

You forgot the N24!!

Like Spa, the N24 was more of a "touring car" race than a "sports car race". Obviously true GT cars have become dominant at the front of the field but I think we've begun to move in a direction where touring cars and grand touring cars are harder to distinguish. That said V8 Supercars, BTCC and WTCC define touring car racing as sedans and hatches only. (My opinion is grand touring and touring cars should be free to share the track, as in the CTSCC.)

Chris

[TrueBlueFlyer]

Originally Posted by The Badger

What good do Adria Airways get outta racing in ALMS , when their a small regional Slovenian airline ?

probably as same as Avior Airlines a small regional Venezuelan airline

[The Badger]

Who do they sponsor ?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Who do they sponsor ?

Starworks.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Starworks.

And TRG? (Emilio Di Guida)

The Venezuelan business community seems to really get behind their drivers (and amateurs) better than anyone in the world.

Chris

[Deleted]

So bit of a conflicting schedule for Baltimore here... the alms.com, and in fact every other source I've read says that the distance is 2 hours (which now seems to be the standard time for our street events), however the official Baltimore GP page says it's 3h 15 minutes...

Now, I'm pretty sure that's just a silly error and we'll get two hours of running - well assuming the organizers won't screw up scheduling like they did on Friday last year - but I always wonder about these things. You know last season Long Beach was supposed to be 1h40min just as in previous years but then a few weeks prior the event they suddenly changed it to two hours without really announcing it.

Dunno about the race timeslot as the full schedule hasn't been released yet, but it's probably gonna end way before sunset again. Hopefully Reliant Park returns to the calendar again next year so we could have some yummy night time running on street circuits again

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Chiana

So bit of a conflicting schedule for Baltimore here... the alms.com, and in fact every other source I've read says that the distance is 2 hours (which now seems to be the standard time for our street events), however the official Baltimore GP page says it's 3h 15 minutes...

Now, I'm pretty sure that's just a silly error and we'll get two hours of running - well assuming the organizers won't screw up scheduling like they did on Friday last year - but I always wonder about these things. You know last season Long Beach was supposed to be 1h40min just as in previous years but then a few weeks prior the event they suddenly changed it to two hours without really announcing it.

Dunno about the race timeslot as the full schedule hasn't been released yet, but it's probably gonna end way before sunset again. Hopefully Reliant Park returns to the calendar again next year so we could have some yummy night time running on street circuits again

Yep, I loved the Reliant Park Parking lot. Best parts were the Dukes of Harzard inspired jumps and the DIY chicane installed at a cost of $10 on race weekend.

[Deleted]

Laugh all you want but those twisty 90 degree turns, stop-accelerate-stop straights and Sebring-like bumps were fun.