Which nation builds the greatest performance cars?

**garcon** · 9 May 2003, 12:45 (Ref:594488)

Surely one of the ultimate petrolhead debates, so it's probably been done before. Everyone's got an opinion, no-one's right or wrong (except Tristan

)...

What makes a performance car? My favourite car magazine refers to something called evoness. It's more than 0-60 and top speed figures. It's about how rewarding it is to drive; how much fun you have giving it a proper good thrashing over your favourite bit of road. But it's not just that. Otherwise, it'd be the greatest driver's car and could be pretty much settled by lap times on a track. It needs that indefinable petrolhead rush. Which is why a Bentley Arnage T can have as much evoness as a trackday kit car...

So here you go folks, who makes the best? Aussie/American grunt versus German engineering versus Japanese technology versus Italian flair versus UK ... er ... tradition?

JonesF1 · 9 May 2003, 13:23 (Ref:594558)

Thats like asking a devout christian what their favorite domination is.

Id have to go with Germany: decently priced sports cars with incredible engineering.

Tristan · 9 May 2003, 13:34 (Ref:594567)

Italy without ANY contest whatsoever.

**garcon** · 9 May 2003, 13:40 (Ref:594575)

Ultimately, I agree. Though it took me a little while. That's why I opted not to allow multiple choices, cos in the end most of us have an overall favourite.

I love the Japanese stuff, mainly cos it's accessible both in terms of cost and driver skill vs enjoyment. Porsche is one of my favourite marques - the 911 is the definitive GT, and it'll work every day for 100,000+ miles. I adore the sheer grunt of the big block V8s in Holdens and Chevys and Saleens.

But alongside the Lamborghini Murcielago and Pagani Zonda they might as well be Nissan Micras...

gttouring · 9 May 2003, 13:42 (Ref:594578)

AS an avid japanese manufacturer fan i must say the legends from Nissan, and Honda, and Toyota are among the finest, but as true exhilarating and unadulterated passion and stunning performance out of the box- how can you argue? The germans build some tech pieces gorgeous, those beautiful Porsches the stately and bleeding fast Mercedes, the Powerful and legendary BMWs, Even the famous US Viper and VEtte are stunners, but performance cars-legends each one you will find roll out of Modena.

429CJ · 9 May 2003, 18:26 (Ref:594804)

I'll choose Porsche over Ferrari anytime.

Dick Spanner · 9 May 2003, 18:28 (Ref:594807)

Took me a long time to come down on the side of dear old Blighty. Aston Martin, say no more. TVR wild. Lotus still build car's attributed with the best handling. We still have a number of really good small manufacturer's (Caterham, Noble, Ascari etc).

The decider though is the McLaren F1, still the greatest performance car ever built. Which beg's the question - when the new McLaren built Mercedes SLR hit's the road will it be classed as British or German?

Tristan · 9 May 2003, 19:12 (Ref:594849)

"still the greatest performance car ever built"

I would have agreed with that up until about six months ago.

But yes, in terms of what I call "sports cars", the UK is the best in the world. However, the sheer passion behind what a car can/should be still exists in Italy. Marketing means nothing. Nor does logic. Or even sales forcasts or profits. Food, family, wine, football, fashion and cars. In buying even an Alfa Romeo, you're buying into a MINDSET.

carrera · 9 May 2003, 19:39 (Ref:594880)

I've given the nod to Italy, they just edge out Germany. Only just. By the tiniest margin possible. Not even the thickness of a fag paper between them. Am I talking myself into voting for Germany. No. Italy it is.

Dick Spanner · 9 May 2003, 19:40 (Ref:594882)

Tristan, youre right about the mindset, too bad it's dodgy electric's, poor servicing and expensive to run.

D-Type · 9 May 2003, 19:59 (Ref:594893)

Australia - Probably OK for wide open spaces but not for hustlinjg around (hopefully camera free) British B-roads. No not for anywhere with bends.
Germany - I can't deny the engineering but there's no soul!
Italy - dodgy electrics, non-existent rustproofing. But style and passion.
Japan - technically competent, probably the best engineered, but marketing have too much say.
UK - the originals but they lost the act a few years back.
USA - grunt but handling never enters the equation
Others - er ... who? France (why have they not produced anything since the Bugatti?) Korea, Spain (repmobiles but give them another 10 years), Malaysia, Czech~, etc (as Korea but another 20 years), Sweden (never).

Having got that off my chest I have to say Italy. Why? Because they are designed and built by people who love cars.

**Aysedasi** · 9 May 2003, 20:28 (Ref:594914)

Gimme a McLaren F1 any day.....

Tristan · 10 May 2003, 00:09 (Ref:595014)

"too bad it's dodgy electric's, poor servicing and expensive to run."

EXACTLY. UTTERLY irrelevant.

Ayse. Don't want one any more. The goalposts have been moved. The F1 was designed to be the "ultimate road car". it still is, and not just in the performance stakes. Any car with a gold-leaf engine bay is going to come close to the "ultimate" status. HOWEVER, the Enzo is... something MORE than just performance. It's about... something I can't describe. It has blood in its veins, not Castrol.

That's not to say that I don't want an F1 big stylie. It's just I ACHE for an Enzo. Like I've posted elsewhere (and to no avail

), it's not a question of desire - it's one of NEED.

I honestly thought the motivations behind the great Italian motor cars of the 1960's had gone. This car has brought it all back. IMHO, it's the best car on the planet bar none.

Tristan · 10 May 2003, 00:10 (Ref:595016)

(god I'm boring!!

)

**garcon** · 10 May 2003, 00:19 (Ref:595019)

Self awarenes is the first step, Tristan

That's awareness. With two s's

woodyracing · 10 May 2003, 00:26 (Ref:595024)

I like Japanese because of their performance, looks, variety and are much more affordable.

I like the big american V8s too, but im not sure about their handling - they like the suspension too soft dont they?

Germany for Porsche, but why do all their new cars have to have the same headlights and 911 look ?? not that theres anything wrong with it but have they run out of ideas (or bottle)?

Overall, in my opinion its very close between British (TVR, Lotus Esprit, Ultima, Aston Martin, Marcos) and Italy. But im going to have to vote Italy for Ferrari and Lamborghini

Tristan · 10 May 2003, 00:27 (Ref:595025)

ANYWAY. Italy makes the worlds greatest motorcars. And motorbikes. They know what MATTERS in life (back to a certain thread in the GT).

gttouring · 10 May 2003, 00:33 (Ref:595026)

Electrics? expense? what the heck.. We agree first to the ultimate performance car from a nation? yes the MAclaren F1 is a king among kings, but a performance car how do we define it? numbers in acceleration? top speed, G's, what is it, Drag Coef.
The ultimate performance car can be any one, the Vanquish, Esprit, elise R, TVR Speed 12, Viper, CCorvette, Mustang CoBRa R, SKyline GTR
to perform really well is a combination of them all, expense cannot be considered,a s they all are ungodly pricey. But Passion!, Style Finesse, Grace, Form- Italy Has it the sound of Ferrari's V12 battle cry, the V8 Shriek of War, The sleek lines and color choices, it is always RED. Lamborghini is exclusive although not the best performer (MAC F1) the DIablo, Murcialago, countach are all milestones in form and function. even maserati, PAgani (is it really Italian or Argentine per Signore Pagani?) With a MErc Engine. The ultimate performance car has slipped the dream clouded eyes of us all, Which cars of performance are the ultimate children of passion who have grown into our wanted mistresses? Again as much as I would Wed the Porsche, or a BMW, or Lotus my heart and blood long to be along side my Ferarri, she is always the ultimate. this i feel is our conundrum, not ultimate performance my numbers, but ultimate performance in our guts.

Lee Janotta · 10 May 2003, 15:02 (Ref:595405)

D-type, drive a Z-06 'vette, and tell me it doesn't handle like a dream!

AussieV8 · 11 May 2003, 13:02 (Ref:596051)

As a Mazda fan I would say a race breed RX7. The rotary has an engine note like no other..

JonesF1 · 11 May 2003, 13:35 (Ref:596059)

These old American muscle cars stereotypes are getting old. Like most people I cant say Ive driven every single great car thats being made right now but ive seen enough magazine and TV tests to know that a Corvette Z06 or Viper SRT-10 can compete with Europes best supercars. They cant outright win every test but for $50k+ (depending on where you live) speed freaks are getting their moneys worth when they buy an American sportscar.

**Dani Filth** · 11 May 2003, 20:07 (Ref:596260)

Italy .. no question about it ...
Germany ... only Porsche .. there is nothing else
UK .... only one that comes close to Italy
USA .. come on .. those cars su** big time
Japan .. the cars are good and thats all
Australia .. this should not have been here

France had some very good cars in the past .. but only Ventury did some good cars in the last years ... the Fetish lookd very good .. but is only one car ...

Tristan · 12 May 2003, 00:06 (Ref:596472)

"a Corvette Z06 or Viper SRT-10 can compete with Europes best supercars"

...and lose.

Mal · 12 May 2003, 06:37 (Ref:596606)

Italy produces the 'geatest performance cars'. All the others, Mclaren excepted are compromises between performance and practicality, and that is not the aim of this thread

SL · 14 May 2003, 20:42 (Ref:599111)

I voted for Italy on the performance as requested. They have more fast and famous than any other.

Should it have been Sports and Performance my vote would have been different.

Simon

View Poll Results: Which nation builds the greatest performance cars?
Australia - the V8 grunt of Holden and Ford (if you must!)	2	3.77%
Germany - the superb engineering of Porsche, BMW 'M' series, Audi RS models, AMG	16	30.19%
Italy - the last remaining supercars? - Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani	15	28.30%
Japan - race and rally bred high tech WRXs, Evos and GT-Rs	2	3.77%
UK - the originals? - Aston Martin, Jaguar, MG, TVR	15	28.30%
USA - GT class winning grunt from Chevy, Ford, Dodge	2	3.77%
Others - er ... Renault Clio? Hyundai Coupe??	1	1.89%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll