ALMS 2010 Discussion

[TWK]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Not economy related! Porsche was a limited time partnership with Penske and proved way to frakking expensive for teams to run. The Acura is another budgetary (economy) withdrawl, to think otherwise....


Me thinks someone has a skewed view of the overall situation, but that is just an opinion!

L.P.

Your timeline needs a little work. GTC was late - after season start - and limited races - nearly a season after observers wrote that there had to be a GT3-type class; then, way too late, they went with Porsche cash rather than a real GT3 class. LMPC came yet another year late - and there were better options, as in the case of GTC - but the cash of selling all the cars from "the family" (check out the Panoz-ACO-Oreca deals) of course won out over a real entry-level prototype class (at least allowing engine options). For those who know the story, it was the same with IMSA Lites...it could have been much better with a large number of small prototypes, but series management saw dollar signs for the company and froze out its competitors. (There are those here who know that story intimately.)

But the real point here is that after a good 2007 and great 2008, IMSA re-separated the prototype classes, destroying for 2009 the competition for overall wins they had stumbled into. By the time they realized they'd created a disaster and re-combined the prototypes for this season it was too late, they'd ruined their series.

Look for an article on LTC soon from Chuck Farrell on where IMSA should go from here.

[Speed-King]

Look for an article on LTC soon from Chuck Farrell on where IMSA should go from here.

Looking forward to that one. Anything seriously radical in there?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TWK

Your timeline needs a little work. GTC was late - after season start - and limited races - nearly a season after observers wrote that there had to be a GT3-type class; then, way too late, they went with Porsche cash rather than a real GT3 class. LMPC came yet another year late - and there were better options, as in the case of GTC - but the cash of selling all the cars from "the family" (check out the Panoz-ACO-Oreca deals) of course won out over a real entry-level prototype class (at least allowing engine options). For those who know the story, it was the same with IMSA Lites...it could have been much better with a large number of small prototypes, but series management saw dollar signs for the company and froze out its competitors. (There are those here who know that story intimately.)

But the real point here is that after a good 2007 and great 2008, IMSA re-separated the prototype classes, destroying for 2009 the competition for overall wins they had stumbled into. By the time they realized they'd created a disaster and re-combined the prototypes for this season it was too late, they'd ruined their series.

Look for an article on LTC soon from Chuck Farrell on where IMSA should go from here.

Sorry, I do not see any great drop off in car count from year to year, on an event to event comparison in the years in question from the entry list #s from IMSA. So where is the timing off?? That some do not like the cars that are running is very clear here! But I do not see those people starting their own series either, so the criticism is baseless, IMO! And the current racing in class, all classes, is pretty good. Do I wish it was better, heck yes! But...




L.P.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by cmk

Funnily enough the LMS is finally starting to see some of the same implosion, and we have Patrick Peter talking about needing to court the privateer teams and exclude the manufacturers along with keeping the FLM cars in the field in 2011 to bolster the grid size. Remember all the various snide comments from Europe about how much healthier the LMS was than the ALMS at the start of last season...? Now they have only 4 prototypes capable of winning outright too, and unlike the ALMS, one is clearly the class of the field!

It's not a like for comparison.

The Algarve round was poorly scheduled with many series regulars missing the round.

There's also the point two, possibly rising to three, ILMC rounds will be part of the five round LMS schedule.

You also have a number of current P2 teams such as Oak and Strakka going to P1 in 2011 while current single car P1 entrants like ORECA will likely run two cars.

The ALMS not only has a far greater number of non ILMC rounds there's also a lack of new teams entering P1, P2 and GT.

For that reason the greater long term benefit of LMPC and GTC could be bringing new teams into the series who progress up the ranks.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Sorry, I do not see any great drop off in car count from year to year, on an event to event comparison in the years in question from the entry list #s from IMSA. So where is the timing off?? That some do not like the cars that are running is very clear here! But I do not see those people starting their own series either, so the criticism is baseless, IMO! And the current racing in class, all classes, is pretty good. Do I wish it was better, heck yes! But...




L.P.

But that's assuming there would be hostility from participants. Look the writing is on the wall, ALMS has won the popularity war. Where were people going to go?

Tagging clear errors with the "Its the economy stupid" line is weak.

We are talking about seriously large companies. While Porsche likely lost money on the Spyder program, the ACO clipped their wings with its dubious rule of making sure a Gentlemen Driver was in that CAR ONLY. Nobody was preventing two/three highly rated professionals from running the class to start with, why now? Oh because Porsche designed a car that really took advantage of the rule book, something MG couldn't manage with its program and where's MG today?

The car count maybe fine, but instead of wishing it was better, you need to say IT COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER. There is no BUT. If the media scrutiny was there they could have changed direction sooner, this is Speed not doing its job (again).

That is the point TWK is making.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Scrambling; I think not, put in place to battle the economy in advance, yes!

Implosion; Once again I disagree. That the count is down is inarguable, but not an implosion, as it has been more gradual than implosive. And these were more economy driven than rules, IMO.

Some of the rules interpretations certainly haven't helped.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Some of the rules interpretations certainly haven't helped.

Examples please?

There was some tinkering with the rules but nothing hardcore. 2008 should have been the first year of combined class and first year of the single GT class.

[Purist]

DJ, Speed's job is as a reporting outlet for the race series. It is NOT their job to make rules or policy for the series.

I will agree that the two prototype classes should have officially been merged sooner in the ALMS. However, contrary to what some have said, this union MUST extend to ALL the series' rounds, and especially the premier events.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

There is no BUT. If the media scrutiny was there they could have changed direction sooner, this is Speed not doing its job (again).

Media Scrutiny? Huh? There's no media coverage of the ALMS outside of what the series pays for, news outlets don't care.

How do you blame Speed for this? The ALMS is a time buy on the network, Speed cares about much about the series as it does the Lucasoil figure 8 & trailer races it shows after it.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Examples please?

Didn't the ACO change the wing rules in the leadup for the 2009 season, making the wing development improvements done offseason for the Lola teams completely worthless in LMP1, and IMSA decided to follow the ACO rule? Not like they were going to win anyway, but you told people that didn't have a lot of money to start with that everything they had done to improve themselves was worthless.

So if you're a prospective entrant (privateer, not factory), if you don't have rules stability that comes from a clear-headed perspective from someone you can talk to as compared to some aloof far off French board that at the end of the day, only cares about the factories showing up at Le Mans because that's how they get their money, why would you risk your own capital if you're not certain of what you got?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Didn't the ACO change the wing rules in the leadup for the 2009 season, making the wing development improvements done offseason for the Lola teams completely worthless in LMP1, and IMSA decided to follow the ACO rule? Not like they were going to win anyway, but you told people that didn't have a lot of money to start with that everything they had done to improve themselves was worthless.

So if you're a prospective entrant (privateer, not factory), if you don't have rules stability that comes from a clear-headed perspective from someone you can talk to as compared to some aloof far off French board that at the end of the day, only cares about the factories showing up at Le Mans because that's how they get their money, why would you risk your own capital if you're not certain of what you got?

Hmm, and what year was Autocon or Intersport tubs layed up(B05 - B06)? And the original aero would still be legal except for a P-1 rear wing!




L.P.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Purist

DJ, Speed's job is as a reporting outlet for the race series. It is NOT their job to make rules or policy for the series.

I will agree that the two prototype classes should have officially been merged sooner in the ALMS. However, contrary to what some have said, this union MUST extend to ALL the series' rounds, and especially the premier events.

Who talking about making rules? How about some opinion or commentary?

Wind Tunnel is the venue for such things. Hardly talked about, hardly covered. I wasn't asking the "Speed Report" to do this, but HANG on a minute! You will hear commentary on Speed Report about any rules change in NASCAR, so that's not quite correct.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Who talking about making rules? How about some opinion or commentary?

Wind Tunnel is the venue for such things. Hardly talked about, hardly covered. I wasn't asking the "Speed Report" to do this, but HANG on a minute! You will hear commentary on Speed Report about any rules change in NASCAR, so that's not quite correct.

It's a series with 3 out of its 4 classes consisting of pro/am owner/driver type teams puttering around on track and making amatuer hour mistakes.

Speed doesn't really cover club racing.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

It's a series with 3 out of its 4 classes consisting of pro/am owner/driver type teams puttering around on track and making amatuer hour mistakes.

Speed doesn't really cover club racing.

Only when its the SCCA National Championship which is largely contrived these days.

Intersport, Dyson and Autocon are clear indicators of "Amateur" hour.

I will say Poppa Dyson was clearly not happy with only finishing 1 out of 5 races and were "delayed" in the one they did finish.

Jon Field punting a GTC car off in the grass (surprise!), he should be getting a bill in the mail fairly soon for that one. Finished I think 19th, but in showing how weak LMP is still get 3rd place points, clearly that shouldn't be happening.

Autocon thankfully didn't make the trip.

[chernaudi]

Good news/bad news for the ALMS: Petit Le Mans might have as many as 45-50 cars entered. Rumor reported on the Speed Report.

Good news-shows how much a draw the ALMS' events can be when there's some incentive to show up(the ILMC, enduance events).

Bad news-be prepared for a crash as far as number of entries dropping for the 2:45 sprint races.

The LMS will likely experience similar issues for the non-ILMC rounds, but there've been also rumors that an established ALMS sprint race round or two may become 4 hour/400-500 mile races or 6 hour/1000km races next year. IMSA's bit to get more ILMC rounds for 2012?

[trahsub]

I like the trend/rumors about the increase in Ford GTs. Robertson's have confirmed the goal of having a 2nd, all pro GT at PLM this year. A lot of us have been waiting to see what the car can do with all pros. Although, is it me or has the performance been less stellar than last year? I remember Murray being in the mix in the early part of most races in 2009. This year, not so much. . .


http://www.americanlemans.com/primar...cat=news|15040

[MJ_N_09]

Yeah that is true, but at least now they can develop the car more based on all pro observations.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Good news/bad news for the ALMS: Petit Le Mans might have as many as 45-50 cars entered. Rumor reported on the Speed Report.

Good news-shows how much a draw the ALMS' events can be when there's some incentive to show up(the ILMC, enduance events).

Bad news-be prepared for a crash as far as number of entries dropping for the 2:45 sprint races.

The LMS will likely experience similar issues for the non-ILMC rounds, but there've been also rumors that an established ALMS sprint race round or two may become 4 hour/400-500 mile races or 6 hour/1000km races next year. IMSA's bit to get more ILMC rounds for 2012?

I don't think they will move to all 4/6 hour events. Firstly that would mean dropping St Pete and Long Beach. Dropping Long Beach will never happen as long as the Long Beach promoters want them and for all the *****ing about a street track, it has history, excellent crowds the whole weekend (both days) and its in the largest car market in the world like it or not.

I think they want to return to 10-12-14 events. I see maybe Road American going back to 4hr/500 mile event and I see maybe Mosport unless its an issue. If Indy Car returns to Road America and does a shared weekend, you can do the 4hrs/500 miles run into dusk as long as they get qualifying out of the way for Indy car earlier in the day.

Find my other post, I think I have the additions covered very well.

As for Robertsons/Doran Ford GT, I don't think much as changed over the off-season compared to the other cars, I don't think they'll get down to where the Ferrari and BMW's are qualifying on a regular basis and I think the 2nd half of the season for Corvette will be better since they have data from running the car last year on the final 4 events. Competitive, maybe, race winner - NO.

[porsche91722]

Good news - http://www.americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=news|15044

[6157]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Good news-shows how much a draw the ALMS' events can be when there's some incentive to show up(the ILMC, enduance events).

If ALMS events were a draw, teams wouldn't need "incentive" to show up.

[chernaudi]

Well then, where are endurance races a draw, while the sprint races aren't? And it's not an ALMS only problem-look at the weak grid from Algarve. And Hungaroring probably won't be any better, aside from the distant possiblilty of Audi entering 1-2 cars to test for the ILMC and get a second car qualified.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by 6157

If ALMS events were a draw, teams wouldn't need "incentive" to show up.

ALMS events are a draw, the only race that doesn't draw much of a crowd is Utah, I would argue its still more than Grand Am will draw for its season finale.

The problem with ALMS is the series itself and who marketing it (fired its full time Marketing Manager). As mentioned by TWK, the ALMS commissioned a 3.8 Million dollar study to find out what type of fan the ALMS attracted. The conclusion they came with is changing the name from "For The Fans" to "World Class" and then flaunt obscure Swiss watches.

TWK said this back in 2008 I believe.

With nobody coughing up sponsorship dollars, if you go to LTC, you know it that fielding even a GT2 car is fairly expensive by racing standards. But the ALMS is also a bargain compared to the other major series.

The problem is NASCAR Cup takes up all the air in the room and Indy Car takes up what precious little is left. Most of Grand Am DP's flanks are empty as well, its not just the ALMS. Camping World are suffering and even Jack Roush doesn't have a full time sponsor for one of his Nationwide teams.

Road Racing also has a bit of an identity crisis, why do you think Grand Am leverages its connection with NASCAR and encourages Cup drivers to drive DP's or GT cars?

Look what happen when GM Racing invited Dale Jr. to drive one of the Vettes at Sears Point. Of course it turned out horribly but that's the most attention the ALMS has gotten from regular media I think ever.

This is why Acura using its connection with IRL/Indy Car I believe helped a bit in drawing eye balls not normally looking for an ALMS race.

That trend should continue.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Well then, where are endurance races a draw, while the sprint races aren't? And it's not an ALMS only problem-look at the weak grid from Algarve. And Hungaroring probably won't be any better, aside from the distant possiblilty of Audi entering 1-2 cars to test for the ILMC and get a second car qualified.

The LMS' problems are different than ALMS.

LMS' are media relations related. After a great LMP grid in 2008 and 2009, this is the first race to suffer in terms of car count. But their larger problem is nobody knows they exist and there aren't enough hard core fans willing to travel to all the races.

ALMS problems are documented.

[6157]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Well then, where are endurance races a draw, while the sprint races aren't? And it's not an ALMS only problem-look at the weak grid from Algarve. And Hungaroring probably won't be any better, aside from the distant possiblilty of Audi entering 1-2 cars to test for the ILMC and get a second car qualified.

I would suggest the ILMC is the draw and the ALMS is just riding the coattails. In the U.S. it's not an issue of endurance racing as few European teams didn't come over for Sebring, no one came over for Laguna Seca.

However, having a couple of ILMC races is not going to save the ALMS from their primary issues and thats what worries me the most.

Originally Posted by dj4monie

ALMS events are a draw, the only race that doesn't draw much of a crowd is Utah, I would argue its still more than Grand Am will draw for its season finale.

I don't want to continue "following you through threads" and "stalking and calling you an idiot" but if you don't have anything on the track worth watching then you won't have anyone watching and that's my main issue here. While GT 2 is awesome, the Prototype grid is lackluster, and everyone knows the sentiment about PC and GTC; the quality of the grid is whats at concern here. They're not getting for their regular series races and they're only getting it for PLM because of the ILMC association.

(And for god's sakes, no one mentioned Grand-Am. I swear it's like every ALMS fan has penis-envy FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER)

Originally Posted by dj4monie

LMS' are media relations related. After a great LMP grid in 2008 and 2009, this is the first race to suffer in terms of car count. But their larger problem is nobody knows they exist and there aren't enough hard core fans willing to travel to all the races.

Depending on what scale you look at it from, no one knows about the ALMS here either.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by 6157

I would suggest the ILMC is the draw and the ALMS is just riding the coattails. In the U.S. it's not an issue of endurance racing as few European teams didn't come over for Sebring, no one came over for Laguna Seca.

However, having a couple of ILMC races is not going to save the ALMS from their primary issues and thats what worries me the most.



I don't want to continue "following you through threads" and "stalking and calling you an idiot" but if you don't have anything on the track worth watching then you won't have anyone watching and that's my main issue here. While GT 2 is awesome, the Prototype grid is lackluster, and everyone knows the sentiment about PC and GTC; the quality of the grid is whats at concern here. They're not getting for their regular series races and they're only getting it for PLM because of the ILMC association.

(And for god's sakes, no one mentioned Grand-Am. I swear it's like every ALMS fan has penis-envy FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER)



Depending on what scale you look at it from, no one knows about the ALMS here either.

I don't think we have a hard-on for Grand Am, its the direct rival and if they only saw that its futile there would be some oxygen for sponsors. All you can say positive about them is close racing but after what happen with Ganassi and being penalized for not having an illegal engine; the word contrived comes to mind.

Scale? Hmm, nobody really keeps track (for free) what Nationwide does ratings wise (I found something though), but I think its very comparable to Camping World Truck

Nationwide and Camping World Truck have limited appeal outside the US. On that scale its competitive. Its currently competitive with Indy Car, especially on Cable.

I don't know if that's an indictment of how bad things have gotten in Open Wheel or how bad a job ALMS management is doing.

You don't bother me I was just saying and I have mucho free time on my hands. Its also been 2 years since I could post here (I was banned), making up for lost time?